SPEAKER_01 0:00

All right. Well, welcome back to our uh final episode this season of Not for Sunday Morning. Um I'm Chris Bachman, and this is my host, Matt. Um he's our guest host because Steve is out on vacation right now. So um, but Matt is uh new to uh Lincoln Christian Church. He is a our our music uh minister, and so welcome. Thanks for hanging out and doing this with us. Like this will this will be good bonding for you and me too.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

So we'll uh throw me right into the deep end.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Yeah, um because I know you you you like everyone else who's not listening to this, uh have been everyone. So it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

We know I listen to a few.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

We we know our audience, so there you go. All right. So uh I actually preached this Sunday and uh our topic was creation question mark.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Um so what's it creative title?

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Uh well it was it was not an easy one to come up with. So I get it.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I get it. I totally get it. So what else are you gonna call it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

So yeah. What's your thoughts? Anything? Anything that stuck out to you? Anything that you liked, hated, like I mean, Steve.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

The biggest thing, and what we'll we'll get into a little bit later, probably too, is um kind of going back to the wonder of creation and kind of that are usually leads us to worship in some way, shape, or form. Yeah. Um, which I think is something that's like uh really important that like you were saying in there, sometimes we get so stuck on nitpicky like uh details that we don't get to that point of actually appreciating God's creation and what he's created and you know even like stuff like the sunset or like even bugs and stuff like that. It's like they're pretty interesting if you actually think about it. Yep, but it's pretty easy to just ignore and just go about your days like it's mundane. I've seen all this stuff before, yeah. But like it is pretty interesting and crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

I think a lot of people like especially in our region, like once the snow starts melting and the flowers start coming up, I think people appreciate that. I don't know if it if they turn that into full worship or anything like that, but like there's at least an appreciation of creation at some level, you know, when when the season changes, uh you know, I always think like spring, I think spring and fall are probably your biggest ones where people are like, oh, all inspired maybe a little bit more by that, you know. Yeah, I get that. So yeah. So what else?

SPEAKER_00 2:29

That's good. Any other thoughts or yeah, I mean, I don't I think uh we should start with an icebreaker though. An icebreaker? Are you before we get into all that? Steve, all right. So Steve have always has a question in the video. Creation is such an interesting topic. But I was like, we might as well talk through some fun things before we jump straight in. So I have other things down here that we could talk about. Anything you want. Start with the with the quick fun stuff first, right? Okay, go ahead. What do you got? I'm listening. So my first question that I put down here was what do you think is the funniest or weirdest creature that Grag created?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Um honestly, oh, that's a tough one. Um the easiest one to go with is the platypus. Sure, sure. Uh I I had thought of that. But the platypus is such a cool creature. So yeah. So if I can get this is gonna be you're gonna make me rabbit trail on this one so many times. So the platypus is interesting because it's uh it's semi-aquatic, like it it it hunts in everything in the water. Um it actually hunts by elect uh electronic feeling, like it's got sensors in its build that can detect uh so everything puts off bioelectrical fields and it can hunt and sense that. Um it uh is a mammal that lays eggs. And that's and that's really cool in its own right. Super weird. Uh here's where things get really cool is um because it's a it's a mammal because of mammary glands, and so but it but it its glands are actually um highly modified sweat glands, and so it actually just secretes the milk on its skin, and then the babies lap it off. Oh, and it keeps getting weirder. Hold on. That is already pretty weird. The uh the males uh have spurs on their hind uh feet, their webbed feet, and they are actually venomous, so they can inject venom into you. And most people claim it's probably one of the most painful venoms ever, and it will last for years. Like that pain will can last for up to years. Yeah. Um hold on, got one more really cool one.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

So if you're a big this is gonna be the whole podcast.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

If you're gonna be a if you're a big fan of Phineas and Fur, which is a great cartoon, like and I highly recommend it. Um on there's a platypus and he's green, right? Okay. So after that show, scientists actually found out that um plat the platypus can fluoresce under blacklight, that kind of aqua green color. And so like it's a really kind of cool thing that goes on there. None of them are ever secret agents, but don't worry about that. So yeah. All right. That's crazy. So just a cool animal overall.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

I mean, I think one of the weirdest ones for me is like, isn't there like a ghost frog or something that has like its babies come out of its back? Oh, yeah, there's like that one. Yeah, there's a one literally holes in its back and they grow out.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

There's a frog that comes like a cat. Like it sounds like a yeah, seriously.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny because like I feel like frogs and stuff. Because we've seen so many of them, it seems normal. But they're they're they're pretty cool in their own thing. Pretty wild. So all right, what else you got? Yeah, next one is uh you encourage everyone to wonder or marvel at God's creation. What part of God's creation do you find the most interesting or awesome?

SPEAKER_01 5:34

That's hard. That's hard because as a scientist, like I know like I've studied biology as my main focus. So like there's so many cool things. And like whenever I would teach my kids, I'm like, like, I would there's parts I would just get so excited about, but like astronomy, just like sure when you look at stuff like James Webb has been putting out, and even stuff that Hubble was putting out, like some of those pictures of nebula and galaxies and like just it's insane. I don't know how you can't look at it and just be like awe-inspired by it, like, or even if you're just you know, unfortunately, like we sit in nearby Chicago and Joliet, and so like there's a ton of light pollution around us, and so it's hard to see things, but if you can ever get out into the wilderness and like you know, the um uh the northern woods of Wisconsin, or even just like the UP of of Michigan and be able to actually see what the sky, like you can see the Milky Way, you can like it the an arm of it, you can when the the aurorics come out, like it's just that's it's all really I still have not seen that. Oh, really? There was one a few years ago that you're in Chicago.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Well, and it got it got out here. I remember people people had posted pictures and stuff about I didn't actually get to see it. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

No, it's it's pretty much such a cool thing to be able to do. But I mean it's everything. Like there's nothing uh you can find Marvel in almost any little thing in nature if you just take the time to look and just see, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

It's true. That's true. I guess here's my last might cause another rabbit trail, but hopefully not too much of one. If you could bring back one extinct living thing or organism, what would you bring back?

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Um I would say that's a tough one. There's a lot. There's um so you would actually bring back quite a few. Yeah, I would. That's cool. I think the cont there's controversial ones to bring back. Like obviously dinosaurs would be controversial, but um, I know like there's there's actually a project out there where they were trying to um bring back uh extinct animals that were um brought that were extinct made extinct by humans. And so like dodo or stuff like that. They've never gotten anywhere with it. Um and we have like uh sequenced like extinct animal DNA. So like we have a bumblebee that we've that's extinct and that we've been able to to um sequence their DNA. But I think I uh I think the fun one to bring back would be a woolly mammoth. Okay. Because they were frozen. Yeah, yeah, in the s in Siberia. Uh and so I think it'd be really they kind of would be over to themselves in Siberia anyway. Well, yeah, I mean you could put them anywhere, like they they lived all over the place, but like yeah, and so um so yeah, you I think it'd be and plus elephants are close enough of an analog you have a natural vessel for them to to give birth and whatnot. So yeah, I think that would be the fun one to bring back.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

So all right. How about you? Anything? Any animals that you care about?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Oh man, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

I mean, I think there's oh I gotta can I give a different one? There's there's one a bird that was in Hawaii called the Oho. Um that we um Audubon not Audubon, um there's a college up in Canada that has like a bio they have a bioacoustics laboratory, so they recordings of animals and stuff. Okay. And so they have the last recording of the Oho, which uh it went extinct. And it's it's really a sad recording because when the guy explains it, talks about it, he it's uh male oho, and they have partners that they always pair up with, but there is no partner left for him. And so like it's just this cry, like this call that they naturally do, and um it goes and then there's no response. There should be a response, and it's just dead silence, and then the oh the male oh, and then dead silence. And so I think I think to bring something like that back, because it's like it it it it's not gonna change the world or anything, but it just is it's like that's a story I've always heard that's broken my heart about it going extinct, and so that that would be that would be the unselfish one to bring back, I guess. So that's cool. Yeah, so all right, go ahead, what's yours?

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Yeah, I don't know if I like have a specific one. That's okay. But I remember like growing up, I would always I read so many different books about like snakes and lizards. Oh, yeah. And there's so many different ones that are yeah that are pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Of course, my parents would never let me get no I I would never have them as pets, but I get them. But they're pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

So yeah, probably something along that vein. But yeah, I don't know if there's any like specific ones, but there are some pretty cool ones that already that aren't extinct, but some of them are on the verge of extinct, yeah, too. Yeah, that we can take care of. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Where do you want to go to gym next?

unknown 10:30

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

You're hosting. What's your where where you where where are you going?

SPEAKER_00 10:33

I don't know. I mean, I think to start, I think there was a uh and we don't have to touch on this too much.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

We can touch on whatever you want.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

But this was kind of the start of the whole thing about who created, right? Okay. So in the beginning um of the Bible, it focuses more on who is what you were saying. Yeah. Than what, or like exact specifics. Yeah, right. Yeah. Um, and I think sometimes it gets into a little bit of interesting stuff here too. And this is very like more of a theological thing. That's but like um I've heard from different people, like arguments of like, okay, God the creator versus God the Father, and that kind of thing, or like, you know, Jesus was there because he's the war, did he create too? Were there co-creators or was it just God? There's all that weird stuff. Does it even matter? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

I don't know that it matters. I think like so if we're gonna drill down into that a little bit, like I think the conversation is um the where the focus should be. And obviously the focus should be on God, right? Sure, 100%. And we should we should use creation as a worship tool for him. However, um, what did Jesus tell us? Like, we should love uh the Lord our Father, God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength, right? And there's four different components to that. There's our heart, which means we should love, right? There's our our mind, right? And so to me, I've always taken that verse and I've looked at those four components and I said, okay, so how can I love him with my mind? Yes, I can constantly dwell on him and think, but but God gave me a brain to think and reason, and and did he's he doesn't want us to be dummies, he wants us to to use our brain, and he that's why I've never like there's this pit between science and and religion, but but I believe science is just the outpouring of our knowledge that God has allowed us and has desired for us to do because the more we learn, the more it's the easier it is to love him sometimes in that regard, right? So like like it's easier to to worship and love and and to be in awe and at everything that we should be to God, I think comes from all those parts from our heart, from our our mind, from our soul, and from our strength. Like we and we do all this, like our right, our body is supposed to be a temple, right? And and so like what do we do with our strength that you know that's kind of like our body aspect of it. What are we doing with our mind? Yes, it's about our thoughts, but I think it's about using it to its full capacity and and availability. And so that's really good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Um I think that's cool to think about it more in that kind of vein, because I think a lot of times we get so focused as Christians on Jesus and the person of Jesus that we don't really uh move towards God that much. Well or we're like, okay, Jesus, now we can get to God. But it's like okay, we're not like but appreciating what that means that we can be in fellowship with God. We're just like, okay, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, which is great because without Jesus, we would never have fellowship with God. Right. But to forget God because you're so focused on Jesus is interesting too.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Well, and and I think too, like, I think there's that limitation to us in because I think the closest person who's ever been able to explain it well enough is um C.S. Lewis in talking about the Trinity. And I don't even think he does a good job in it, in all honesty. Like, I mean, I don't know how anyone can talk about the Trinity without committing a heresy of some sort. Pretty easily. Yeah. And so so um, but I think I think that's the limitation for us, is like we can't envision it as one being, and and then it becomes even harder when you have Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time, but that doesn't take God out of the picture, that doesn't take the Holy Spirit out of the picture, and so I think the limitation of our brains, we just can't wrap around there. So it's like we piecemeal them and say, okay, here we focus on Jesus, even though Jesus is God. Like when you focus on Jesus, you're focusing on God, but but at the same time, we're not we're focusing on the son aspect and not the father aspect, right? And so it get it does get we do get bogged down on that. And and like you said, rightly so, you know, the son did everything so that we could be in union with the father and and be you know brought back to him, and so there's is that aspect, but I think um the thing that's always interested me, and I don't remember who I heard this from, but so um John 1 1, right? In the beginning was the word and the word was God and the word is with God. And so I and that's like one of Steve's favorite passages is that whole John 1 uh passage. But um uh the way someone explained to me is like so when you go back to Genesis, right? In the beginning was uh God, right? And but then God spoke, right? And but what what's John say in the beginning was the word, the logos, right? And so so Jesus is part of creation, it's part of creation in the sense that he's someone so the way someone explains it was he's the words of creation. So when God said, Let there be light, that's Christ at the same time. Like it's interesting. Um it's it's an interesting take. And I mean, who knows? Because he's the word, yes, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The logos. And so interesting. So he's the word of creation, and not through him and all all things were created, right? Like so yeah, so it's an interesting like thought process when you get into it.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

That is pretty weird. That's cool. Yeah.

unknown 15:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

I think uh if you want to the next thing that I kind of wanted to touch on was I think you had mentioned there was a story to go along with one of these quotes that you had, and so that's kind of where I wanted to land a little bit here. But your one was that doing like me. The Bible can be true without answering all of the questions we have, and you had kind of like a a journey in that. Oh, my my story that's right.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

You had like a story or a journey that you mentioned, but I won't retell my whole story, but so so specifically, like what I guess what do you want to know specifically without me retelling the whole story?

SPEAKER_00 16:29

I mean, it sounded like maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but it sounded like there was a point, maybe some kind of a point where you realize that more than others, or you know where you realized um that the Bible can be true and science can be true, or like you kind of had that realization.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

I think it was there like a specific moment, or it's like a I think that there was a it was a um because it was never like I I never didn't believe science to be true. Like I I I I don't know that that thought ever crossed my path. I think I think they lived in two separate camps in my mind and I didn't know that they were connected. And I think that um when I went to the lecture series on young earth creationism, that that was the first time in my mind I saw that there could be a connection. So I'm using could be. In that point, I'm like, there's a connection here? Oh my gosh, like this is absolutely amazing. Like I was unaware of uh the word apologetics or anything like that at the time. And so, like, for people who don't know, apologetics is uh the the word apology is actually Greek for argument, and like it it stems from the Greek root for argument, and so um the apologetics is is creating the argument uh or the defense of an idea uh within the Bible. So like there's apologetics all over all sorts of things, like there's apologetics on the resurrection, there's apologetics on creation, there's I mean everything has like that needs a defense, and nothing needs a defense, but anything that we can think of that we want to formulate an explanation for why we think something happened or how something happened falls into the boat of apologetics. And so um so I didn't even know that was a thing. And then so when I found out about this, it was um it's just mind blowing. Like I was just so enamored because I did love science and and nature, and like to to see this, and I'm like, I I just didn't know how to to and I didn't think I didn't think anything on like, oh well what little science I knew was mistaken. You know, it wasn't that it was necessarily wrong, but but they're maybe interpreting the data incorrectly because I still think sometimes scientists interpret data wrong. Like there's yeah, a lot of opinion making sometimes in more controversial science than there is like you have to formulate your own opinion. Like you the data doesn't tell you. You have to take the data and you have to interpret what the data is telling you. And and anytime you make an interpretation, your your worldview is always gonna come into play. Now, as scientists, like we can all pretend we're Spock, you know, from Star Trek and like logic always you know prevails, but but there's not we we have our our biases that that go into that. And and sometimes their biases like I didn't mess up. Sometimes their biases and it doesn't mean that it makes it wrong, it just means that okay, so now somebody else goes through that and they look so so in science they read papers and they write papers and other people look at it and say, Yeah, everything you wrote seems about good. I mean, after they've torn you up and down, left and right, like they scientists are the most cruel people on the planet. And yeah, yeah. Um, but but once it gets published, now it's like, okay, but that leaves it open for other people to re-experiment with and to retest that and see if they come up with that, or see if the the idea, or do a different version of that test, or test it in a different way and see if it holds true. And like that's true how science works. Like it's that's the purpose behind it. And so makes sense. So is it possible? You know, when I'm learning this young earth creation stuff, I'm like, is it possible that they might be wrong? I mean, the guy made compelling arguments in my brain for my my very few scientific, you know, what my basic scientific knowledge was at the time. But then when I changed over to biology as a as a major and like I'm in all these science classes, and it's not like the physical science classes, it's not really chemistry, it's not really physics that I'm questioning things in, it's it's biology that I'm questioning things in. Like, huh, that actually makes sense what the professor's saying, it makes sense what the book's saying, it makes sense like when you start to take all these little puzzle pieces and put them together and form a big picture, it makes sense the conclusions they're coming up with. And it makes more sense than what I was learning as young earth creationism. Doesn't mean that I discounted everything that young earth creationism was saying, but it just started becoming harder and harder to latch on to that, which meant it became harder and harder to say, is Earth Young Earth Creationists believe it's like 6,000 years old, six to ten thousand years old.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

That's what is my next question.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

If for people who don't know, like what exactly is that belief of young Earth Creationists? 6,000 to 10,000 years old, and they get that because what they do is they go through all the genealogies that everyone skips over in the Bible and they add up all the days, and they're like, oh, okay, so this blah blah blah blah. And then uh from the time of Noah's flood, because you have like what year that started from creation and all that. And so then they come up with about six thousand, and then same thing with the Jewish calendar gets tossed in there sometimes as an argument. And uh but but usually you have a range six to ten thousand years old. And um, and so it just became harder and harder to to Be like six to ten thousand years old. Now, with that being said, I'm gonna pause really quick just to say, um, I don't really care. Like at this point in the game, like that's yeah, and and and I the line I use typically when I talk to people about this is my God is so powerful. If he wanted to create everything in seven, six, six uh 24-hour days, cool. I know he can do that. If he wanted to take 14.5 billion years to create the entirety of the universe and everything like that, yeah, I don't see him not being able to do that either. And so, like to me, it really doesn't, in the end, doesn't matter. It's and that's what I was trying to get across in the message was it doesn't really matter. That's not the point. The point is, are you worshiping God out of there? So so it became harder to to reconcile it. And it wasn't that I was losing faith so much as I was not, I didn't know what to do with it. Like I didn't know, like you know, because here I'm sitting thinking, like, if I don't believe in six 24 hour days, like am I wrong? Like, is that wrong of me? Is that is that a a heretical sent you know sentence question?

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah, am I actually now believing the Bible or am I like, oh no, now I'm interpreting a parse of scripture differently than what I was told? Right. How much are you gonna misinterpret now, right? Which is what a lot of people think. It's like, okay, well, if you start tugging at certain things, then their whole theology or their whole view of God or their whole view of scripture just falls apart. It's like, okay, well, you know, if that's not true, then you must not believe the Bible like I do. You must not be a Christian like I am. Yes. You must not, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Like and and and like in the viewpoint of like young earth creationists, it's like anyone who has any thought of evolution is like demonized. And and it's and then and so it's like like for me to get up there on Sunday was terrifying. And I'm not terrified usually to get up. Like I always think I'm not gonna do well, like, or my words are like my sermon's not a good sermon. Like that's where I get afraid is like, oh, I'm gonna I'm I'm just not gonna do well because I wrote garbagey this week or whatever. It's a hard topic and I didn't know what I was doing, and and that's usually my fear when I get up there. I'm not I I've taught and talked in front of enough people in the world that I don't need to worry about anything else. Sure. But it's I've always kept it a secret for the most part, like my belief of creation and evolution, because I've always been worried that people would label me a a heretic. And I and and and not everybody, because I I know most people don't think about that, but there are the people who are that in that hardcore lane do, and you know, and it it it it was fearful for me to to express that, to say this is what I believe in and I have no problem believing in evolution. I have no problem believing that that's a mechanism that now can I explain again, I can't explain everything about how he would do it in 24 hour, you know, days. I can't explain everything. I can tell you what the science tells you, but I can't explain it in a theological sense of how he could do it in 14.5 billion years. Like I I run into a uh uh a difficulty when we reach, you know, about 3.5 billion years ago to like 5 billion years ago when we go from a single cell to a you know, yeah, to like I run into issues with that, and and that's fine. Like again, it's a limitation to more.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Or even like the beginning of all of it, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah, like I mean Big Bang, though, I think Big Bang is actually really easy because essentially whether you're uh an astronomer, astrophysicist, or if you're a a uh creationist, like God spoke and then happened, right? Like and so like that's how the big is very interesting. It's pretty much if if you've ever read um Hawking's uh uh Brief History of Time, like I mean he fudges his numbers a little bit in one of his calculations, and not fudge it. His math, I'm not calling he's a smart guy, like and I'm not calling I'm not smarter than he is at all. And my math is not that good, but I I there it was a someone who did point out once like he does something funky in his algebra where like he uses imaginary numbers, but he doesn't convert back out of them at the end. So his beginning is the beginning instead of being a point, becomes a curve at the beginning. And so it makes things a little funky in there. Um but that's the only like odd thing that is you know, it's still a beginning, like there still is a start, you know.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

It's true. Yeah, and I think it's no matter what, there had to be some kind of start. And I think it's everything that starts like it's hard to argue that that start was completely chance, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Uh yeah, I mean that's scientists have been trying to do that, like, and that was the whole idea behind string theory, yeah and and now they call it um and um embrain theory and all like like because string theory is everyone realized was garbage, and so they just moved on to the next idea.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Is what I'm trying to say, but it's like it's yeah, it's really hard to explain that. And it's that's I think one of the compelling arguments for creation and God creating it too, is as well. And I think even like like what you were saying, God could have decided to create it in every way he wanted to do it, yeah, right. And it doesn't really change who God is. Like if he if he decided to use billions of years and like just decided to like allow things to change over time and kind of just be the mastermind through that and just allow that to happen.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

And you know, of course, changing things along the way if he wanted to, but like and yeah, so something like I want to point out because I think it's an easy uh fallacy to fall into is like there um so uh early in this nation's founding, a lot of our founding fathers, we can all say they're Christians, but they were deists, right? And so um not all of them were, but like Jefferson was a very famous deist um because he rewrote the Bible and he removed every single miracle out of it. It's called the Jefferson, yeah, it's called the Jefferson Bible. Um and so because he uh deists believe that essentially um and uh Richard Dawkins, who is an evolutionist, um, wrote a book on evolution and he entitled it The Blind Watchmaker. And basically, uh I always uh appreciated Dawkins as an evolutionist because he thought things, I felt he thought things through really well, and he wasn't afraid of confronting like this idea of creation, whereas you have like Dawson, uh I can't think of the other guy, but he um he's very staunch against against creation, yeah. Um and so, anyways, uh so the uh uh I think it's Dawkins. Anyway, so he wrote Brian Watchmaker, and Deist would agree with that, where essentially God set things in motion and then just steps out of the picture and lets things run. And and in my opinion, I I don't believe that because I because again, creation is sustained through him, right? And so so there is this um it's understanding God's providence and what providence really means and how God sustain sustains the entirety of creation and can influence the entirety of creation through his will. Um not in miraculous ways, because miracles are a totally separate item uh uh from his providence, um, but provincially remained with creation and continued it through there. So, like there is a very distinct, like there's the blind watchmaker premise, and then there's the the provincial method where like and that's where I will fall.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Like, yeah, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Because then you get sticky with humans and human evolution and all that kind of jazz.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

And I I I think that's interesting because similar to you, if if evolution did happen, it doesn't have to or not have happened, right? It's but if it were to have happened, in my opinion, similar to yours, I believe God would have been the one that's kind of orchestrating it or guiding it, or you know, and the thing is like to come up with all these crazy different, you know, animals and galaxies and all that kind of stuff, it's like, okay, that's there has to be something. There has to be something more guiding that than it just being like, okay, it's just this single cell that went blah blah blah blah blah, and then oh, we got this. It's like, okay, like I it and if it was like billions of years, then it's like, hey, that's beautiful that God did that over that time, in our minds time, right? Of course, which then it gets into that question of of God's time and being outside of time behind ours. And something that I actually pretty say well say pretty often is like when I get in that argument against like free will or God's plan, is like, you know, God already knew what was gonna happen before it happened. And so I believe there could be both. Like I think it just gives me a way, yes. He knew the outcome, but we could also have choices of our own. He gives you a few. And we could also have free will. Yes, we can have all of that with him still knowing the outcome because he's he's existing outside of that. He can see what's gonna happen later. So it's it's one of those interesting things where it's like, you know, I I believe God either way, it's like both ways show wow. Like it's really impressive to do this all in seven days. Yeah, but it's also very impressive for him to take that time over billions of years to craft something, right? It's like yeah, with a guy that perfectly like yeah, it's very awesome and amazing and impressive. So and it neither one causes us to worship him very differently.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

No, because it's still the tree's still green. Yeah, the the tulip still is a beautiful flower. Like, I mean, you still you have these amazing things that still exist out there. Like you still have the platypus.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Like, I mean, like like which is hard to say that that thing came about by chance, but yes and no.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Like, I mean, I can I can argue both ways, but but it does get difficult. Like and and that's where like I think it for me it's very unique that I went I started young earth creation and I went to evolution and it didn't change my faith at all. But but to have like those because there are definitely scientists who aren't Christians that don't necessarily like and it's tough. Like if you're not a Christian and you're not believing in evolution, like okay, so I I struggle with that a little bit because then I'm like, are you in like the flat earth like category? Or that's where it gets into weird stuff too.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

At some point, science did say some pretty weird stuff. Scientists it science is all. Over the years there have been some weird.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

And then it fixes itself, and then and then it and that's the beauty of science, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:07

You know, then it's proven, and we've actually have clear evidence of something.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

So whenever I taught my kids, I always said never use the word prove. Never when you're writing your whenever you're writing your thing, you've never proven anything. You've only shown in this one particular example that that was true statement. And I said, Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

So that only happens in uh math, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Yeah, maps map proof. Scientists do not. We guess and we speculate and we go from there. Yeah, it's just speculation.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even if you see it with your eyes, it might not be exactly how how you expect.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah, so in the end, like it was it, I think you're you hit on the head when I s the way I said it was it's not it was never a fight. It was how do I live with these two worlds? Like, how do I how do I live my biblical world, how do I live my scientific world? And then coming to that realization that and it takes study. You can't just and prayer and faith and and and support, like and fellowship and discipleship and all that, because I didn't come to that on my own. Like I had to go to my pastor, he had to tell me about William Lane Craig, he had to tell me about uh this geologist guy, he had to tell me that information. So then I had to go do the footwork. Yeah, because the pastor at times like I don't he's like I think he's a good William Lane Craig's a good speech. William Lane Craig's very highbrow. Like I know uh I think Robbie Zacharias is was another apologist at one point. Yeah, and so like yeah, um William Lane Craig's very like he's like and I'm not trying to brag, but he's like here. Like there's some stuff I'm listening to, and I'm like, or you read his book, like his book's like it takes me a while to study his book. Like um, he has one called uh I don't remember what it is. Uh I can't remember. But anyways, he's got a book like, and it's it's challenging study. And so, like, but I had to put the footwork into it. Like I had to, I had to put the time in, I had to read his blogs, I had to listen to his lectures, I had to to really start to understand it more. It's not that I can't just sit here on the sideline and then be like, well, what do I do? And then um hope that I you know resolve my crisis of faith at that point. It's you're never gonna resolve it that way. It's you've gotta you gotta put it in. And so like yeah, the more and then the more I studied Genesis and and actually studied like the his the history of it and like how we came up with it, and like you know, it's it's made from like three manuscripts. They call like I think they're like R, J, and N or something like that. And so like R and J make up the first 11 uh chapters of Genesis, and then the second one is is the remaining part of it, and it's funny because like when you read commentaries, they split Genesis into two. Because because of the difference of the manuscripts, and so you so when I was actually writing this, one of the things I thought about putting in, um, because I know Steve likes stories, and I try to keep I try to to not write like he does, but but I know the the people in the the congregation are used to him, and I don't want to I don't want to shell shock in it. And so like I try to do similarities of him, and I'm not a storyteller, like um, but I've tried it a few times, and so um I was thinking of like how because he had made mention, I think, when we were talking about the hit when he did the Can I Trust the Bible? Like, almost like if you think about it, if Moses actually wrote these books, right? Because Moses is typically attributed with the tribute Torah, and so the Torah is the first five books of the Bible, and so um, so let's pretend Moses it let's not doubt that, right? Well, there's a long time between the creation and Moses if you're going young earth, right? Like you still have thousands of years in between that. And so um, so now it's like, okay, so how did obviously, you know, insp I do believe inspired, right? But but that just means the Holy Spirit's helping to guide that, right? It doesn't mean that you know the per the personality still shows, and you can see that like when you read the New Testament, when you read the gospels, you see the personality of each author in there, right? So so while this the the the Holy Spirit's telling them like this is what's important and you need to put it in there, um, it it's still their personality is shining through on that, right? In some ways, yeah. Yeah, and well, I mean, like I I always if you don't believe that, like just go back and read John because like if you read the book of John, it's like, oh my gosh, John John is John is probably gotta be one of my favorite um gospel writers and apostles, and just because he he could tell, like he really made everyone seem like they were real. And what I mean by that is like he his focus is totally different than all the other gospel writers, right? But when he he writes about the other apostles, like when he makes fun of Peter for being slow, and or like or even like he calls everybody out at some point, and it's like you know that he was the comedian of the group because he's like he he's gonna call you out on whatever, just like that final dig, and just like and he's la in my brain, and again, I'm making this all up in my brain, he's laughing as he's writing these things and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

I think sometimes even like even like Jesus had some of those things too. Oh, for sure, yeah. You know, his his personality showed through there too. And then of course, when you're writing it, you're writing it from your writing it from their own perspectives as well, which means that a lot of their personality and their cleans and their you know backgrounds are going to be put in there too.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

So going back to Genesis, like the idea that Moses wrote these, I have no issue with that. Whether it's true or not, I don't I don't care one way or the other. But how did Moses get the stories? They must have been told and and oral history, like I mean, look at the Odyssey. Like the Odyssey is big this year because of the movie, right? Well, the Odyssey, most people don't realize if you've ever read the full thing, like first of all, the it's like that thick of a story, like it's not short, and it's called an epic poem, and it was recited like before it was written, like before Homer put it pen to paper for that one, it was recited. Wow, and so like so you have this historical tradition of storytelling that exists. Why would the Hebrews not have that as well, right? Of course, and so I always just kind of so my envision of when I was thinking this too and trying to explain it is what we see written down probably came from all and I I'm gonna use the word bardic, like like we're you know, we think of bards in the medieval time, but it's a similar concept, telling stories through song or telling stories, however. Yeah, uh as you're wandering 40 years in the desert, you're gonna get bored pretty quick. And so, like, if you don't have storytellers telling stories during that time, and so then but but if as you as you read the Odyssey, it's written, and if if you're reading it in the original Greek, it should be a poem, right? And not necessarily rhyme like we think, but in a in a way that is easy to remember. And so, why wouldn't that be true about these stories too? And I think much of scripture is poetry, right? There are there's different parts. So psalms are definitely poetry, right? Like so um it's Tanakh, I think is the acronym that they use for it, but there's like historical, prophetic, yeah, uh uh literary or poetry poetry, and then um uh psalms, I think, are considered maybe separately in that or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Yeah, I mean I think psalms are clearly poetry, yeah. And they're the kind of their own thing. Because they were probably songs. Because like even other books of the Bible, it's like they have poetry poetic elements in there. Yes, and so interesting. So it's it's sometimes hard because it's like, well, we're reading an English version of something that was written in a thousand years ago. Sometimes in a poetic way, sometimes maybe it was like a story way, sometimes it, you know, or in a context where it's like, okay, they would have understood what he's trying to say there, but now we're we're looking at from our viewpoint thousands of years in the future, having having all the scientific knowledge that they didn't have.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Because like one thing that drives me nuts is like if people like want, oh no, this is a hundred percent science. The Bible is not a science textbook, and the and the verse I can point to, I can't tell you what it is, but it's somewhere in um Leviticus, I think, uh, where God is handing out rules of what not to eat, and he calls bats birds.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

And so, like at that point, it's like this is not a science textbook. And and you have to realize it because or there's like why would they think the stomach part of it where they think they're heart or whatever too, right? Yeah, and why would they think that is because well they flew, so it makes sense to them that they would they would have been a bird, yeah. Listed them together, but it's not yeah, it's not the science that we know, it's the science that a nomadic desert wandering tribe would understand to the rest of their ability. And it was written for them. In that time. Correct. So and and we're trying to steal it for our time frame.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Yeah, and missing the course it of course it it doesn't have any time, right? Right. It is written for all believers, but at the same time, there are stuff in that contextual that it's really hard for us to completely understand without knowing what they would say. What's the purpose behind it?

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Why are when we read it and and if we're reading it for modern purposes, what's the purpose that it's there for? Yeah, yeah. It's really what that's about. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Uh I had like one or two more things.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Um I don't know how long we've gone, but Steve would be like beating the drum at this point.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

So but we're we're getting close. I'm at like my last two. It's the last one. Like my last two cares. Who cares? Yeah. Yeah. No one listens anyway. So wow. Yeah, there you go. I mean, I think the last thing that I actually you already talked on this, but I just wanted to bring it back to the front a little bit is um, I think you said something like we don't strengthen the authority of scripture by trying to make it say something that it doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

And I think a lot of times, and uh on that same topic, um I've been at a lot of churches where we just take exactly what the pastor says and we don't ever think about it. That's true. That is exactly how you interpret scripture, that is exactly how it should be. And the problem is we all have the Holy Spirit. We all have different spiritual gifts. We all have, you know, the ability to look at scripture and research. And we have the internet now, we have all kinds of things where we could literally just look up things and decide for ourselves too, instead of just, you know, oh, my pastor said this, so that has to be the right way to view it. It's like, okay, but I mean, there's a lot of times where I don't agree with something that a pastor says. And to be honest with you, I'm okay with that. Like we have different interpretations and stuff, or but to Be in a congregation and to not to just take your pastor's word for everything and never actually do any research for yourself, I think is really, really crippling some believers because it's like, okay, well, I'm just believing what he said, rather than actually researching it and developing you know my own ideas and you know allowing the spirit to work through me to come to conclusions on some things.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

Yeah, I I think like I I agree with that and and but with uh uh a small bit of caution because because we don't want relativism. Sure. Right? Yeah like there there's still and and I said this, there still is truth. Yes, and we have to be cautious about that. So not every interpretation is valid. Yeah, I agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

And and so there are some because of context and because of that that are clearly better or pretty much can be decided as truth because of the context and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Yeah, like we always want to cautious, like never take a verse by itself out of context, because you can make any verse say whatever you want it to say, right? And so when we look at context, we want to look at the entirety of the Bible, right? And so we want to see how does it line up and how does it go. And and that's interesting because like you so you're new to our church and you're new to the fact that we're a restoration movement church. And I know like a lot of people get down on the Church of Christ and and and uh the Christian churches as an idea, but but the beauty of it and what Alexander Campbell, when he was one of the people trying to put together, is he's kind of saw what you were saying, is people were just putting he used the word creeds, you know, and and I would and I would add like I think some of the liturgy that that people did uh and making that the gospel.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Yes, it became a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Yes, and so like this was what he when he founded the restoration movement, his purpose was stop doing all this stuff that's dividing us because we're all Christians in the end. And so we need to make sure that we're aware that we're all Christians. So if we get rid of all this extra that we've added on, these interpretations that we've put in and made them holy statements and all that, like then we can come back to being the church Christ wanted us to be. That's good. But because we're all focused on the episode, what's more important, yeah, and we're all idiots as people, we screwed that up even. And then it's split into three different splits. Yeah, there's three different splits at least now. And like there's even deeper ones, like there was one I was reading the other day where it's like, oh, you can't give money to outside organizations, you have to give money yourself as the church, and then some are like, no, you can like sponsor, and so like there's a division over that. I'm like, of course, dumbest thing ever.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Like I mean, I of course it's slightly off topic, but like the church dividing over every little thing just gets me so frustrated because it's like when like similar to what you were saying with nitpicking creation and then saying, Oh, they're not a Christian because they don't believe that. We do the exact same thing with theological interpretation. Yeah, we're like, okay, these details here, so they're not Christians because they don't believe these details about it. They're not Christians because they don't believe these details about it. And then it creates this almost like superiority feeling for the people that believe that, where it's like, okay, we've got this right way, and that's the problem. Because we've got the right way, now those people aren't really Christians, and we've got to, you know, it becomes a little cultists.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

And so, and so Campbell actually, because he had a follower that like, I don't know, ripped on the Anglicans or something like that, because they something about their belief in baptism or something like that. And um, he's like, he the saying that comes from him is like, we're um we're not the only Christians, but we're Christians only. And so, meaning like, because if you think about like you have churches that are if I asked you like, oh, so what's what's your religion? You're like uh um Lutheran, right? Well, what does being Lutheran have to do with being Christian, right? You you're calling yourself by the name of a man, not the name of Christ, right? And so so what Campbell was getting at is okay, fine, you can be a Lutheran, you can have your interpretations that of those non-essential elements that you know make you a Christian still. Yeah, and and we can too. So when we're calling ourselves Christians, or when he was calling it the Christian church or the church of Christ, he was saying, Yeah, we're Christians, but we're not the only Christians. Like Lutherans are still Christians, they're just yeah, they're we just are trying to get them to stop dividing over creed and and ideas and stuff like that. It's not just calling out Lutherans, by the way. It's Anglicans, that's all the Methodists, that's everything like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

And and the thing is, what I've noticed, because I've been at pretty much like I don't know, I want to say I've been at at least 10 different churches, maybe more, and they're all different denominations. Yeah. And the really cool thing about it that I've noticed from each is that they usually have different attributes of God that they focus on or that they like bring forward. So like you can see, like Anglican, it's pretty obvious. Yeah. Like, okay, they're really focused on the holiness of God and Him separated from it. Up to end there, right? And like even the buildings, everything clearly shows that. Yeah. And then other things that are like more charismatic ones usually are more focused on Jesus as a friend, right? Right. And it's like the really cool thing is God created all of us and he is all those things. Correct. And when we're together and we actually put aside things and we're willing to be together, we see so much of a bigger picture of who God is because he is all those things. Right. We are just nitpicking certain things about him that we think are more important than others, but he really is all those things at once.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

So yeah, yeah. And and so it's it it is a sidebar, but it but it's it it does get to the point of like people do divide over stupid things, and creation, like I said, that's why I was afraid to get up there. Like I didn't say that I try not to ever give um divisive opinions on things because I always look at it from the viewpoint of and so like you'll almost never hear me talk politics, you'll never hear me talk things that because I I like Paul, I don't want to lose half of my audience.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Yeah, yeah. And I will say, on that listening to your message, I didn't hear anything like that, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

I had the one line where this is where I fall, and like so you did toss it out.

SPEAKER_00 50:23

But like in you, I think like listening to it and being in the congregation, it felt like you touched on a lot of the viewpoints equally. It didn't feel like we were leaning to one or the other. I was trying to do it. It felt like we were hearing a lot of different ideas, and you know, I think and then the refocus at the end, which we can kind of I'd probably come back to now, is like, you know, that refocus into basically instead of arguing about these nitpicky things now, let's have a wonder for God, let's have a you know, a wonder for his creation, let's allow creation and the beauty of the things that he's created to turn us to him and to worship him through that and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

I I think that that was the it's that's the hardest lesson that I had learned. Um because I am a very logical, very like thought processed, um like I I just have a science a mind built for science. And so like it it's hard to to sometimes put that part aside and but at the same time it's very easy because when I get into that that viewpoint and like like I said, whenever I would teach, there are there are moments like and you could like if you could find any of my kids I taught like um that I was just giddy over like let's talk about this. This is so cool. Like let's check out like what's really happening here. Like the most mundane thing, like is um and it's something I hate, but it's so so cool nonetheless, is something called cellular respiration. So it's essentially how we break down sugars in our cells.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

And um and part of it is you need oxygen. Yeah. And the whole purpose of us breathing oxygen on this planet Earth is just so that we can make energy in our cells. And and it's it's even it's even more basing that it's literally there to pick up loose electrons so that way the system doesn't get backlogged and you can just keep making energy. Because if you don't have oxygen, that's why you die when you don't have oxygen. It's like you can't pick up those little tiny electrons and take them off and and do and do everything that you need to keep doing in order to survive. And so it's like it and to get a kid to realize that, like, and how awesome is that? Like, literally, we don't need oxygen for anything else except for that one little tiny purpose. And it's like, that's so cool. Like, this I this whole atmosphere is 20% oxygen, and yeah, and we breathe it every five seconds or less, and it's like literally everywhere just for such a small thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Yes, but it's so critical.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

It is, but but it's be there's a beauty in that. And there's like, and when you start to re and and when you can attribute that, like if you're a believer and you're a Christian, you can attribute that beauty to that God created this and God set it up this way. Yeah, like that I don't know how you don't, you know, like it's easy to look at a picture and be in awe of what's going on. It's easy, like it would there I would uh teach anatomy and I would do uh histology, which is study of us tissues. And like one of the the tests was like I would put up slides and like okay, name this tissue. But I always tell the kids like these are pieces of artwork, you could hang these on a wall, and it's a beautiful piece of artwork. Like and and like just to think of it as that, like like literally like a slice of liver, a slice of the bladder, a slice of muscle, like there is beauty and art in there, and like nobody sees it, and and that's and and you know, like we've avoided Darwin as a as a person and and and everything we've talked about up to this point. But one of the things is so cool is like when he was on the Beagle, um, and he was a naturalist, and that there wasn't science really back then, like the way we think of science, but he would get he had a microscope, and which is extremely rare because they were so so expensive. He was a very rich man. And um, to afford a microscope and have it on this this trip with him, he would get seawater and he would see the uh phytoplankton in there. And he his wonder was how like he he his thought was why would God put so much beauty and so much life in the middle of where nobody can see it?

SPEAKER_00 54:35

And there's so many depths to like the oceans and all that kind of stuff, so much unexplored.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

And he's just looking at these little tiny like figures that are floating around in the water, and so like and we again we demonize Darwin because he's an easy guy to to you know pin, oh uh everything's gone down because Darwin came up with that evolution. But Darwin was believed in God, it didn't it didn't stop him, like you know, and he was gonna be a minister at one point, like and so but but again, as Christians, we lie we we we demonize these people and and it it's bad because it's like they're not they're not evil because they believe in evolution, they're not evil because they don't believe exactly what you believe. Now, okay, I'm gonna really be controversial here. Have you ever been to the Creation Museum? Yeah, yeah. You have? What'd you think? I'm just curious what you think of it.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

Uh I mean I think it was pretty cool. To be honest, I I went when I I don't know, I don't think I was well, I did go when I was a little a little bit later in life, too.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

Like in your 20s or oh, you're only in your 20s, like your teen in your mid-teens. I just hit I just hit 30.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Oh, really? Oh, okay. Like in July. I can't make that. I don't know if you're not going to be able to do it. But uh yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think there were I think the hard thing for me there is that it's I think it was really cool to see all that stuff and kind of see the different things. I think it was, but we didn't go to the start. Okay, okay. I haven't been to see the arc, so I don't know how to do it. But I do also feel like it's difficult when everything that's there is like just one specific thing and one specific viewpoint. And there aren't like arguments to other things or like logical ways of.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

I struggled so much in that museum.

SPEAKER_00 56:30

Everything's just like this is how it is. This is how it is. This is how it is.

SPEAKER_01 56:33

I struggled so much with that. I'm like, this explanation doesn't even make sense. Like it's just it literally was just direct things. It's like, this is, this is, this is. And I'm like, that doesn't make sense. Like you you're not like laying and and if you go to a regular museum, they don't do that either, really. Like they say, this is you know what we spot fine, this is what we see, like but uh or you know, this is what this particular thing is. Sure. Um my favorite part about it, honestly, was the botanical garden outside. It was probably the most beautiful thing that I've ever seen. Yeah, I but yeah, I struggled with that.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

I think I did go there with my wife, and we we took some pictures out in the botanical garden. That was it was beautiful. Yeah, yeah. So that that to be honest with you is that's one of the biggest things that I remember about it.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

100%. Like there's like one or two exhibits on like I remember what they look like.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

I remember yeah, I can I can im I can imagine a couple of them. But I mean, there's even that that funny thing about I think it's dinosaurs are really cool too. And I think seeing those kind of stuff. And yeah, that's it. I think there's even those really weird, cool questions about that. I was like, okay, did humans were humans alive when dinosaurs were here? We don't know any of that. Like in I mean, well they could have been before.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

Or they could have been like it depends on again how we interpret things. Are are these stories in Genesis 1 through 11, are they bardic tales that are telling a theological concept to us? Yeah. Um, are they literal? Are they however you want to interpret that, right? And so, like there, but again, like if you're hinging your entire faith on interpreting those as 100% literal, we've got a whole different problem to deal with than than just you know the fact you're interpreting as literal. I don't care, you can interpret it as literal, but if that's where you're hanging your hat on, we got bigger problems like in in your theology that we need to address at that point. Like, that's not the point of any of those stories at all. Whether they're true I'm not saying they're not true, but whether they're literal true, whether they're Spartic true, whether they're you know, however you want to look at it, but that shouldn't be the focus of your religion. Full stop. Like like the the story of the Tower of Babel, the story of Noah, the story of creation, all that, I think they're they're conveying theological truth. I think there's possible that there's a lot of truth in them. I don't know if they're a hundred percent true, you know. Like it because if you read Genesis one and then you read Genesis two, you technically have two creation stories, right? Because man gets created in day six, right? And then you read Genesis two, and it's like all about man being created again. Because like then it's different because in Genesis one, he's like, let us create man in our own image, both male and female, right? Then you read in Genesis two, then he puts Adam to sleep. And then he so Adam's been around for a while, right? And so they're not both created at the same time. And so it's interesting. Which also, too, like one of my favorite Bible verses, because it's very Shakespearean, is uh when when uh Adam first sees Eve, and he's like, Let this be bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. And it's like that is such a Shakespearean line, like it's it's and very bardic in the world.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

At the same time, yes, it's like okay, is that exactly what he's why?

SPEAKER_01 59:40

How do you get that? And even if the Holy Spirit told you, 100% does it matter, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:45

Correct. And it's like, okay, like what are these trying to tell us? What is what is the purpose of this being here? Right, right. Is it okay?

SPEAKER_01 59:53

Outside of creation, is it okay if this the epic of Gilgamesh and the story of Noah are literally the same story, just being told from different cultural perspectives? You know, like is that does that change your viewpoint of who Christ is and who God is and all that?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

You know, yeah, and there's I think that's it's hard because I feel like sometimes we get stuck on those things and then we like we miss the overarching story of creation and often, yeah. So and then yeah, I think it's even like uh what are we supposed to be doing with our lives and stuff too? It's like sometimes we just like get so stuck on those little things that it's like, okay, well, are you actually doing any of the things that Jesus did?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

Are you actually like living anything like he did? Yeah, or you're just getting hung up on these little things of oh, this was true, this was true, and this was this wasn't, and not actually living out anything like how he lived, right? Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:51

Yeah, yeah. And I and and I had like our last pastor here, um, I think he was the one who first said it like don't you don't have to be weird to be Christian. Like like you don't have to be like, well, I can't have a Christmas tree because that's pagan. And I you know, or I can't have a tele like you don't have to be like you want to do that fine, but you don't have to be weird to be, you know, and when I say weird, like I'm not trying to be derogatory, but like outside of the the norms of what society is doing at that point. Sure. And and I and growing up in the you know, being older than you are, and Steve and I are about the same age, like we grew up during the eighties, and it's like I think like from the si my my viewpoint's always from the sixties that the Christian church um withdrew from society because they wanted to be different. They didn't want to be you know, they literally took the um don't be in society, don't be in the world, right? Yeah, and they took that literally don't be in the world and they're just separating themselves completely. Okay, so we're gonna separate well. I blame everything that we go through societally now on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:57

On them separating.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

Yeah, that's so difficult. I agree. It's like at least 20 to 30 years of that. Because I think like we started to realize in the 2000s, maybe late 90s, but I would say somewhere in the 2000s reality, that we can't be pulled back anymore. Yeah, but but that's because we started to see the repercussions of that, and now we're being reactionary.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

We looked at as these like just judgmental people who have zero love. Like, what like God said we're supposed to be known for our love, and now we're known as like but when we pretend to be pious, when we try you know, when we put piety over love, like I get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

I get why people are like you're you're if you're just real, like that's the end, that's where you need to be, you know, and and we're gonna make mistakes as Christians, and it's okay. And and listen, we're not gonna get everything right. Like, I could everything I said up there, I I'm sure I hit on a correct point at some point, but I don't know what it is. Like when I get to heaven one day, it's gonna be like, You got that one good, you know, it's it's one of those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:00

Like that's why even like getting to heaven is like yeah, you know, the sheep and the goats passage of like what did Jesus what really matters when we got to the point. Like, and then on top of that, it's like I think you ended in this will kind of help land the point here too. But like one of these things that really stuck out to me towards the end of what you were saying that I think sums it up pretty good is um what a tragedy it would be if we spend our lives arguing about how long it took God to make the heavens and never stop to marvel at the God who made them. Yeah, right. Yeah, and like I think that kind of sums up a lot of a lot of what you were saying up there too. Um but yeah, it's it's hard because I think as humans we want it's it feels more comfortable when we can say it's this way, it's this way, it's this way, it's like we'll have an answer, right? Like and it it's it's hard to not to live in that that's why I said it's okay to say I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Yes, yes, yeah, yes, like you're right. And and I think it's human nature to to not want because I don't think we want to look dumb.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

In that mystery, I think is what you put it, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

Yes, it's okay, yeah. There's there's a difference between mystery and I always contradiction, yeah. Yeah, for sure. So all right. Um I had some quick fires. Or did you already go through yours, or were those the ones in the beginning? This was all I had. Oh, okay. That's all I had. How about this? Um uh what do what's your thoughts on extraterrestrial life?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

I think it could happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

I I'm not against it because I think with how humongous the galaxy is and how it could go on for forever. So to to be like, oh, we're the only ones and hold on to that is like okay, what does it matter if we are or not? Right, right. He could have. He very much well could have. And I'm not gonna say that no, he couldn't, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:48

God is I'm never gonna say no God couldn't do something because I know that's not ever the interesting thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:53

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if he did. Right? That's basically what I'm saying. That's fair. That's fair.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

How about like UFOs?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

I don't know. To be honest, I don't know if we've seen any of that here, is what I'm saying. I probably wouldn't go to the extent of saying that there has been um like contact with them. I don't know. No, that's fine. I don't think I'm gonna go wrong with that. I wouldn't go to any of that extent. Okay, but I would say like with how vast the expanse of the universe is God could have done anything, could have created things differently. And they could be so far away they're never but I don't I personally don't think that there has been like connection between us and them. What about you on those those ones?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

Um so I I struggle, especially with like modern day footage of stuff, especially when you're getting military stuff and now you got like Congress and everyone looking into it. It's pretty interesting. It gets interesting. Um I I struggle because like you have like our vice president uh saying like, oh, they're he thinks they're demons. And I have no Problem with that actually as a thought. Like interesting. Um, though I tend to think principalities are uh more of the invisible realm than they are of the invisible realm. But we know that angels can manifest themselves physically, and so if they could, and if demons are really just fallen angels, like potentially, like maybe like that that's where I struggle, because like when it comes to the when it comes to like looking at science and like where I land with evolution, one of the things I always thought was why would God put all of this evidence in front of us in a mind to contemplate it and not and not be true? Like, why would I don't think God would ever lead us in the wrong path? I know like one of the one of our members here came up to me. He's like, Oh, yeah, I went to a church and the guy's like fossils are fake. And and he's like, Really? He's like, I I could go in my backyard and dig up some some fossils and and how are you gonna tell me after they've been sitting in this limestone for this many years? Um so like I I find it difficult to see what now is our interpretation of what it is actually what it is? Like, who knows? That's where that's where I've struggled, so I don't know what it is. I I'm just plausible to an extent. The thing about it is like if it is true, it's gonna it's not gonna affect my faith.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:19

Again, it's like I I wouldn't be surprised if it is. That's how that's how open I am to it. It's like, okay, I wouldn't be surprised. But at the same time, it's like to distract from like what we're actually supposed to be focusing on, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:32

Yeah, I mean it's so it gets all hung up. Or create so much fear about it too.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:37

It just depends on how you how you interpret it. Like you don't want people to spiral into fear because of that, right? But at the same time, it's like, okay, for it to be a possibility is cool too.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:46

Unless it's like shake your faith. Let's go that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:48

There you go. That's that's that's what I'm trying to say. That's a good way to put it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:52

Yeah. Because it it should not matter. And I I hope I put that point. I I know I said it, but I hope people caught that point. Like it doesn't matter, it shouldn't change your thoughts about Christ, it shouldn't change your thoughts about God, whether that they do exist or they don't exist. Same thing with dinosaurs. Like, I'm not saying dinosaurs don't exist, but like it shouldn't be. Some people it'd be hard to say they didn't exist. Um but at the same time, it's like Yeah. I yeah. It's one of those things where I I don't want I but I also don't want people to think like it's not okay to I don't want people to think it's not okay to talk about those things either.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:30

Like and I I think that's where it gets hard because when people like shut it down right away, it's like sometimes I feel like, man, how are you that prideful that you're like oh God only made us, he only did this for us, he only did this, he only did this.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:43

It's like I will argue we're made in this image, and that's a beautiful thing. Because like that's the artist, and now the artist's image is literally placed throughout this entire planet. Sure. Right? Yeah. Now if you made aliens, are they in his image? I don't know. Again, that's where I would say the Bible's silent, and so I'm silent on it, which is and I don't need and why would he have to explain himself on all these other things on the other hand?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

Even if he did. That's why I'm like right. That's why I think it's such a shallow view, is like to just discredit all that immediately is like, okay, well, like he could have. Like if you believe he's that powerful, like, and then you're just like, oh he'll he just did this thing for a thousand years, and that's it. That's the only thing he ever did. Like, wait, really? Like, he's been he's exists completely out of time, infinite, and this is the only thing he ever did.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:30

And and that was something I also didn't talk about. God didn't create us because he was lonely or anything like that. Like he just did it because he can't he he wanted to. Like it was just a want, not a need. Like, and that's an important distinction as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:41

Like, we're not that's funny because one of the small groups that I had uh a couple churches ago, there's a small group, and the one guy who kind of led small group mostly, he always joked that his theology was oh, God can do whatever he wants, God can do whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

I agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:56

But I mean, like he could that's his theology for everything, but I used the answer.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:01

Like, if you want to just shut this the conversation down, but um yeah, uh yeah, no, like I I don't want people to think like it's to to discuss or to you know, I I'm gonna use the word argue. I know people don't like that, but to argue about these ideas and topics, I think it's okay to do that. I think we can have disagreements on how things are gonna happen as long as as long as we're Christians and we walk away in love, knowing that we're still brothers and sisters in Christ, and we still love each other at the end of the day. Like I had a good friend who we are on opposite sides. He is a young earth creationist, and I am not. And we we can talk about it and it's okay. We know like he loves the creation museum, and he's like, Oh, this is the best place ever. I'm like, okay, like I still love you. You're my still my good friend. Like, I'll do Bible studies with you every single day of my life if you wanted. But um and it and it's okay. We can we can be there and we can do that now. When it gets to be things that are primary topics, we can't we have to say this is what you have to believe to be a Christian. Yeah, yeah. There are certain things. There are definitely there are definitely pillars. Yes, yes. And and but and it's fun. I think it's fun. I think it's fun to talk about UFOs. I look, my my other secret is like I think Bigfoot exists, like or at least I really hope he does. Like, I mean, you know, like to me, that's a fun idea to think about. Like, it is that possible and and what is it, or like any of these like cryptids, like I love cryptid organisms, and like like some of them are like, no, that's absolutely stupid. That's not true. But but there are fun fun ones to think like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:41

Some of them it's weird because it's like, okay, this has been it's a story for how long? This has been a story for how long?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:46

And how many cultures and how many people are how many generations and for yes, like there's gotta be some truth in there. There might be some kind of something, yeah. But it's fun, it's okay to do that. Like, I think it's again that goes back to our mind. God gave us a mind to to to learn, to think, to be creative. Like God, again, it's called creation. He was creative in what he did. We can be creative too if we're the image of God, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:10

And so and to have that wonder, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:12

And not just to say, oh, it's this way, and I'm not gonna look into it, I'm not gonna study, I'm not going to be open-minded, but also know what your foundation is, what your bedrock is. And if you if you can, right, Christ gave the sand and and the stone, right? Yeah, build my house up on the sand, it's gonna get washed away if I build on stone. There's nothing that's gonna shake that foundation, right? And so, like, we can talk about anything we want if we know our foundation is Christ. Yeah, and it doesn't change it. We can we can learn from each other from having those conversations. Yes. Um, I think we hit a lot of these. Did animals die before the fall? If we're gonna go into Genesis or the fall or like sin, do you think animals died before then? Did animals die before the fall?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:03

That was an interesting question.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:04

I don't think so. No? That's interesting, but I don't I don't know. I don't know. I know. It's like one of those if if humans were were created to be eternal beings, right? I don't see why animals wouldn't be. But then you get into that weird stuff as like, okay, well there are there animals in heaven? I don't know. Well, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The same ones that we uh or are there gonna be dinosaurs in heaven, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:26

Will ro I think Will Rogers is quoted as saying, if dogs don't go to heaven, I don't want to go either. So there you go. Yeah, so yeah. Um, well, I I think we had that. I was gonna ask, what is one creation question to which you have to answer to which your answer is honestly, I don't know. Well, there's a lot, like there's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:47

I mean, yeah, I think even to be honest with you, I would go all the way back to like um literal seven-day creation. Like, I don't know exactly if whether it was that or not. And it's like to be honest, with pretty much every viewpoint that I argue, I always leave it as I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:09

This is my sometimes you're saying this is my thought, my yeah, this is my thought, which is not God's thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:14

And I usually say I could be wrong at the end because I probably am to be prideful enough to say that that interpretation is a hundred percent what God believes is like, okay, who are you to to say that you have the belief of God and this other person doesn't? Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:30

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:31

That's right. So almost with any, to be honest, with you, belief that I have, which is kind of like holding it with open hands. It's like, of course, like there are those pillars, right? Yeah, but a lot of these like beliefs like this that aren't gonna change the way that we live.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:44

And but there's even points in those pillars where I get down to the point where I'm like, I don't know. Like sure, I'm you know, like the Trinity exists, but I don't know. Like, don't don't ask me about it. Like, I'm gonna tell you it exists, I'm gonna tell you, you know, but I don't I really don't want to talk about it. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:01

Like it's one of those topics where I'm like, don't even like the the saving faith. Like, oh, is it a is it this prayer that I have at this one point, or is it this something where I've talked about that like a while ago?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:12

And it's like it's where does that happen? I don't know. When I read the Bible, I'm like, I don't know. I hear stories on one side, I've heard stories on the other side.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:20

Does it have to be this one conversion moment, or could it be a thing that we can do it anyways when I always end that conversation? It's it's interesting where there's like so many things like that where it's like I really I really just don't know. Okay, this is the last one.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:31

So I mentioned these in the in the sermon, but I didn't um specify where they were at. So Job in the book of Job, there are two words that are used uh in the original Hebrew that nobody knows what they interpret to. Like we only have the context of them. So Beamith and Leviathan. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. What are your thoughts on those? I dinosaurs, not dinosaurs, where you at?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:54

I believe that they're real creatures. Yeah. And I believe that there's evidence in bones of dinosaurs which were some of them are pretty similar. Unfortunately, some of the dinosaurs that we've we've discovered, we realize later that they're a mix of like three different dinosaurs' bones that were in the same box.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:10

Okay, well, when we get off the air, I'm gonna tell you the story behind that because they're not gonna want to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:15

Um if you read so it's like, okay, some of those could have been pretty accurate.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:20

Beemith is described as having a tail like a cedar tree. Like, I mean, to me that sounds like a sauropod of some sort, and Leviathan sounds so I'm also very particular in this. Dinosaurs are land lizards, and uh plesiosaurs are water lizards, and pterosaurs are flying lizards, and so um so technically Leviathan would be a plesiosaur, not a dinosaur. But anyways, but but okay, but it's it can't be caught by the hook and the way it describes it in there. Like it's possible. I I'm not gonna say one way or the other.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:50

And it's that's the thing about it, is like I I totally uh It'd be cool if it was, but it's cool if it was a dinosaur. And it's that's where I come to that weird argument. It's like, okay, did dinosaurs exist before humans created, or were dinosaurs, you know, there in creation in the Garden of Eden? Like it's all those weird things. It's like, okay, they were all herbivores now.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:13

I know, and that's the weird part. That's the hard part. I struggled that's why I struggled in the creation museum. So anyway, it's pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:19

It is a vegan can of worms with that. Steve's gonna kill us because I'm sure we're at an hour and a half right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:24

Which is like I've it might have even stopped video at this point. So all right, well, thanks, Matt, for uh doing this towards me.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:31

Uh I hope we enjoyed Steve enough with the length of this. Yeah, and then he's gonna edit it for like three hours. Yeah, he's gonna enjoy that, I'm sure. I'm sure he will. He's gonna be like cut half of it because it's like, what are these guys talking about? Just nonsense half this time.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:44

So hopefully we'll return next summer with season four. I don't know what that's gonna look like yet. I always am hoping that we can come in to you guys before then, but if not, um thank you all, two of you for listening. And uh we appreciate it. All right, keep uh asking questions and uh see you later. Thanks.