unknown 0:00

All right.

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome back. We are uh not for Sunday mornings. And uh I'm Chris, this is Steve, and our topic this week is um why do I mess up? Why do I mess up? It's a great question. Yeah, it was fun. It yeah, it was good. I I enjoyed it. Like I thought I thought you did a really good job up there. And um yeah. So um Yeah, yeah. Um uh no, it was good. Like I think you made a lot of really really good points. And um, I know for me, like when I was sitting in there, like I kept thinking of Paul saying, like, why do I do the things I don't want to do anymore? And and so it's not a new problem that we're dealing with. I mean, it it goes all the way back to the beginning, and so um it's definitely a relevant question to ask and and not one that kids just ask, I think adults, and you know, like I said, with Paul, like if Paul asks it, you know we're all in trouble at that point. So um, so yeah, so so I I got a couple like I guess leading questions into this. So do you think um do you think becoming a Christian makes you more aware of your sin rather than less aware of it?

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Yeah, more. I mean, because I think before I'm sure we're gonna get we we all have a lot of different thoughts here, but yeah, I think um the more the closer you get to Christ, the more you are aware of your sin. I mean, because before you know Christ, you don't even know what sin. Sin is not what do you mean? There's no sin. It's you live in life. There's no maybe you know things are bad or right or wrong or something like that. Maybe but even that it's not like sin isn't a thing. And that's why I think I opened with like, hey, this isn't for those who aren't following Christ. Because I'm not asking people who don't follow Christ to act like they're following Christ. It's stupid.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

So right, it's something we always uh argue about because I think it's one of the downfalls of a lot of Christians is we look at society and we say, um, they're not they're not doing the Christian thing. Well, no duh, they're not doing the Christian thing because they're not Christians. Like that's yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Yeah, so that's I I think I think for that. So okay, all right.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Um gosh, um, what do you got? So I got I got some things.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

First of all, that it was the difficulty of trying to walk that line of not um just beating people up and making them like crushed, and then also though not ignoring the weight of sin and just say grace, grace, grace. And so trying to walk that line of of both. Um I had some fun internally doing that. Um it like I tried to, I don't know if it came across, I tried to set everybody up about how they're bad and weak, and then like you really yell at them about that, and then kind of flip it around. So for me, that was just like a thing I was having fun with. Like, I don't know if anybody picked up on it, but it was fun.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

No, I I like that. I mean, um it it is a it's a it is a tight rope to walk because I think you did I I in all honesty, like, and not just blowing smoke, like I really feel like you you did do it masterfully because masterfully, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

You can tell Chris is sick this week.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Um no, but but what you did is uh it number one, we we know that there are people who walk into this the service every Sunday and they want their they want their lashings and they want they want to feel bad about themselves for the hour that they're there and then go home and do whatever they want to do and and and justify it in that regard. And I think I think the way that you walked that and pointed that out to begin with, and then but then you come back and instead of just focusing on the sin aspect, you do bring in the grace aspect as well. And I think you tied it in in a manner that made sense. Um and I think it's I in all honesty, like I think it is a difficult thought process to have. It's a difficult thought process to have, like, yes, I'm a sinner, yes, I'm sinning, yes, I need to stop sinning, and yes, I don't have to do things to earn my way. Yeah, it it it almost feels like an oxymoron, like like it's just it's it's a it's a weighty thing to deal with. And and I think you did a really good job trying to explain that to the to the to the audience at the time.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

I tried, I tried. Yeah. Um some things that didn't make the sermon. I didn't spend a lot of time with why doesn't God take the struggle away. I talk a little bit about it, but not as much as I I was gonna. Um in fact, I had like a whole thing about um possible markers of growth. Because I think we judge ourselves our judge ourselves pretty harshly that we're not growing. And I think if we were to be able to So one of the things I did I didn't put in was I took a picture. I have a friend, Nanita, who goes here, and she came here as a preschool student, and I I marked her height on inside of my door frame when we had offices. When we moved, when we we did all the remodel, that frame is very important to me. So that frame is in a back closet. We moved it to a back closet. Nobody else knows is there, but all the markings are there. And so on last week I had Anita who now is I don't know how old she's sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade, yeah. I had her standby and made a mark, and you could see the growth. Like it's remarkable, right? And I was gonna use that as a sign of like like, hey, you are growing. Maybe it doesn't feel like it, but that's a step back and I think we do see growth. And I think some of the things that possible markers of growth is like we do recognize sin sooner. Um, we confess quicker, we make fewer excuses, we invite others into our problems. Um, we begin to hate what sin does. Like, I think that's something as you get more mature, you start to hate sin. Um, we turn toward Jesus faster. Uh, the fruit of the spirit is becomes more visible, we're more loving, patient, kind, all that stuff. Um, and so I think if I didn't put that any of that in there because it felt a little like I could have got lost in the sauce. So, but though that's one of the things that didn't make it was just helping people to see that you you might be growing more than you realize.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Yeah, yeah. One of the things I I was thinking of is is the just if people ask the question, what actually changed in my relationship with sin when I became a Christian? Like if if you sit and contemplate that, like that's your growth, right? Like, where am I at in that? What's that marker kind of look like? But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

And so much of it needs that's the so much of it should it's internal. That's the whole thing. It's like we want to like I become a Christian and now I point out sin in everybody else. And that's just hot garbage. So um take care of yourself, you know. And I think that's where in fact, the more I recognize sin in me, the harder it is to point it out in others because it's because who am I? You know what I mean? Like I am a yeah, I'm a hot mess. Right.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Like you almost become more timid to do it.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

You recognize how his grace, how strong his grace is, but and like it's so unworthy.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

And I think like the times that it's if it's done, if you do it and you do it right, it's it's more as an act of kindness and love than it is anything else.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Like it has to come from love. If it's not, then it's not.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

That's the whole thing. It was like, yeah, if it's not from love.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

I think the biggest one I can think of, like there were several of us involved, and it was like we tried through love, like, hey, how can we how can we help you? How can we show you like you what you're doing is is detrimental, not just to you, but other people.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

And then the other thing that didn't make the sermon, I didn't spend a lot of time talking about shame. Um I think like after we fall, the enemy does probably some of his greatest work and that you sin and and shame drives us away from the person we need the most. So, you know, I didn't talk about like guilt and shame or or what does the Holy Spirit conviction look like? Um, how do I know the difference between both? And I I I just again I felt like it was too much in there to deal with that.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

But um Yeah, that's another tough one. And and I think in adding adding that, it's an extra layer. Like it's it's that idea that we have um we we have guilt.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Yeah, and guilt says I did wrong. Shame says I am wrong.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

Right. I think that's the difference. And I think and I think we blend them though quite often, and because we don't recognize that, and and I think that's definitely where Satan takes hold is that we just don't recognize the difference between the two.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

Um I did have another question, like how how do you so like you talked about um when we we try to combine like having to work hard at not sinning and but not having to work hard to earn God. Like, so so how do you work incredibly hard at becoming like Jesus without believing your hard work makes God accept you accept you? I I think that's a difficult thing to I again, I think because we're humans, it's hard to to separate those in our mind, like our hard work and um the fact that we're doing something, and then I think because we live in such an an award-based economy in all things that we do, right? Like it's hard not to see it that way. Like what what's the advice to somebody for that, I guess?

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Yeah, I mean I stink at that. So I'm I do too, I know. And I try my I part of it's being aware and like recognizing that. Um I I am blessed that every Sunday I get to stand up most every Sunday and speak to people. And in that moment, for me, I am always amazed at what God does with those words. And for me, those it's so much uh bigger than what I am, and it it's like for me like a reminder of how big he is and how despite my many failings and fallings that he can still use me and it's so it doesn't, you know. So for me, I'm I'm blessed with that reminder, and it is I mean, every week I am amazed at what God does not because I'm like, I'm an idiot, you know, and that that he can use anything. So that's helpful for me. I think um having friends around that we talk and say they'll catch things like or confessing, you know, part of that's doing it this thing together, and like, hey, I'm look how much I read, and I'll be brag about that. But you know, I mean when you you just have people hold you accountable with some of that.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

So that's maybe um it's hard though.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

It is what else do you leave out?

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Anything that was all I left out. I got a couple things to dig on, but you got pushback or something like that. I do have some pushback, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Okay, all right. So um uh I think you used the line when I sin in that moment I choose sin over Jesus. So I guess my question is, is it really a conscious choice between sin and Jesus?

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Um I don't yeah, uh I mean I mean I think we sin ignorantly often, you know, so probably not in those, but there are times, you know, maybe again I made a I made a point of yesterday talking about looking at an image on my phone for too long and kind of hinted at some things. Um not go into too much detail there, but you know, sometimes you make a choice, like you know right or wrong, and it's like I'm gonna do wrong right now. You know, I don't think you think about a little kid that steals a cookie and knows it's wrong to steal a cookie and like I'm gonna hit eat the cookie.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

Yeah, I I mean I guess I I don't know. I look at sin I think because the way I look at when we're when we become Christians, so I'll use my my analogy I always use, we're we're we're big smelly onions, right? And the our sins are those onion layers, right? And so when when we become Christians, we become convicted of we can't we're not convicted of all of our sins, we're convicted of of the ones that Christ feels like we can work through to start with. And so you peel off that layer and then you then you work on that next layer and you keep working on layer after layer of the layer. So I think like I I find it hard to say like that's always a conscious, because I think if we're not convicted of the sin, you know, it's hard to say like, yeah, we're absolutely choosing a sin over Christ. I think sometimes it's like you said, ignorance. There's a lot of ignorance in our lives about it. And until until we're the the Holy Spirit convicts us, we we really are not we're not gonna be able to work on that, you know. And that's where it becomes hard because like that's where other Christians come in and say, Oh, but you're doing this. And and you know, we had a big argument, um, not you and I, but um, there was a big discussion years ago about like, do sins have rank? Do sins have, you know, like and and if a person has this sin, and you know, do we let them do things in the church and stuff like that? And so like I think I lean lean towards more like it's not every time, it's you just may not be aware of it yet. Yeah, and that's where I think like in your spiritual life, that's where you pray, like, God, show me show me where I'm wrong, show me where I can improve, show me where I can do better. Because He will, and it'll hurt, and it'll be it'll be bad for a while, but it it goes away at some point. So um you're gonna mess up, right? So could emphasizing inevitable failure accidentally lower expectations for holiness?

SPEAKER_01 12:54

That was the most AI generated question I've ever heard in my life. You're gonna mess up. What's the question?

SPEAKER_03 13:01

No, you you still mind you're gonna mess up. I know I used to. Yeah, so my question is if if Are you setting the bar low when you say that?

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Oh, yeah, no. I mean the real I do I so I let's just be honest. Like, I again I I think that's where you say like repulses, I don't keep on sinning so I can grace. You know, I don't Yes. There's a reality of that we're gonna mess up. And that's not that's not an excuse to mess up, but that's also that was more encouraging to people who want who feel they have to be perfect. You know, and part of that stems from Again, I went to the went to the high school thing, the retreat a month or so ago, and some of the boys um were deeply bothered that they're not reading the Bible enough and they're not doing these things right enough. And it was like and I get having a hunger towards holiness and why I I get all that, but it's like the bar is so high that if I'm not this, then God is this. And that's where I think we've got to be real careful. Like, um, I am a God's grace overwhelms me because I mess up every week. And then again, it's not I don't mess up so his great, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 14:01

It's like that weird handheld thing, but like Yeah, I think again back and Paul, I mean, Paul literally wrote the books on this, right? Like where he talks about not just does grace abound, but but he reminds us that that every time we sin, and we're re-crucifying Christ, right? And so I think it's to think about that is what was done for us and what our sin really means and and goes through that.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

But yeah, that didn't make the sermon.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

I had I did a lot of work this week in Romans that never I I couldn't imagine you I was actually surprised that you didn't just land do the whole thing from Romans.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

It is hard because Romans is like I think my next challenge after I get done spending a year in uh Leviticus is a year in Romans. I think Romans would be more harder than Leviticus. Honestly, Romans is so difficult, and it's so the way it's worded to make so I have like I feel like I am very simple in what like I want to keep things very simple at a very level where people can understand and not being dumb, right? But just and so Romans is so complex, and so to make it simple is is just it was beyond me this week. And I tried and I just couldn't do it, and so I didn't I used just a little part of Romans, but not at all. But that was gonna do that. I don't do what I want to do, I do what I want, and man, I got it's too because everything lays on the what's before it, so you can't yeah, it Romans really does build on something. Because you can't and so then the way I read, I can't just say I can't say context before content and then just drop a verse in there. So now we've got to go back four chapters, and now we're setting this up, and now we're and it it just becomes this, it becomes like a um um a college level course, uh a pr a presentation, not a sermon.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

And so I I couldn't make I just couldn't make it work. So I quit fighting halfway through and then No, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

I get it. It was challenging. I get that. Yeah. Um you said is struggling with sin evidence you're growing. Um so my question is, is conviction evidence of sanctification and if I continually refuse uh if if I continually continually refuse to act on it.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Okay, so I don't quite understand. So is conviction.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

So like at some point I say I feel terrible every time I do this. At some point that's not enough, right? Like so the question I guess falls more into like what what does biblical repentance look like?

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Yeah, well that's turning away and you know, in that moment, turning away from that and turning towards God and and taking those steps to go home. Um yeah, a repeated sin, a repeated struggle. Um I think in just a moment we're gonna talk a little bit about I have a little experiment I want to do with putting things to death and some practical natures of that. And I think some of that is is that there'll come a point where you will be so sick of it and maybe you'll realize you can't do it on your own. And so you will invite brothers and sisters in to to walk with you. You'll you'll take steps to um to try, you know, to keep moving forward, even though it might be slow growth or slow movement.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Um, no, I I get where you're coming from with that. Um and kind of in the same vein, I'm gonna ask a slightly different question. Because you said God doesn't really does God really not waste the struggle, right? Um and so I think just for clarification points, like because I could see it being interpreted as God needs me to sin to sanctify me.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

And so like can can we clarify that?

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Like Yeah, that yeah, I think I mean I thought I said something like we don't need to sin to prove God. Like Paul talks about that in Romans 6, that we don't go on sinning to do that. So um I didn't uh I didn't quite understand the question.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

So like I it was more of can we c just clarify the idea? Because like I think there's the way to I think there's a way of hearing that and saying like, oh, God needs me to sin to sanctify me.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Yeah, and maybe some folks feel that way. I would I would lean more towards the people that beat themselves up, constantly beat themselves up because they're not good enough. And so it's like I wanted them to have a little bit of hope in there that the struggle, while painful and not perfect and not ideal and not you wouldn't want to do it, it's not gonna be wasted. And like I think that the the the boy the prodigal son story Which is actually kind of neat. So this theory is this question actually.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

This question stemmed from the the prodigal son.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

So the question was is it okay to be Is it okay to be the prodigal son? Yes. That was the question. And so that got me thinking, like, what's beyond that question, which got to the messed up thing. So for me, like I think the prodigal son he learned stuff while he was away. Um I don't want to pull on that string because it's a story, but like probably the value of money and the value of earning, and uh I I I mean some practical lessons he learned, and then he also learned how great his father is. He got to see he finally realized how kind his father is. Even though because that's he came home and he the reason he he he turns, he says, Well, at least my dad takes care of the people that work for him. And so I know he'll take care of he won't receive me as a son because he's not like that, but he would receive me as a servant. And so all of a sudden now he he sees a whole new dimension of his father that he never saw before. Because what father runs out and protect grabs him and protects him and saves his life. I mean, like so again, I think that happened because of the struggle. Um whereas the older son doesn't have that struggle and kind of goes in a different direction. So I think the struggle is I don't want to see the struggle. If you're someone who beat yourself up because of you keep falling or keep failing, um I first I speak grace to you and and I just want to are you work are you walking towards, are you getting up and moving towards it? You know, it might just be a small step, but are you working toward and that's I just want to encourage that, not just stay down in the mud or you know, that you're useless or a failure and all that. That part, not very much. Or even just giving up because you got so the thing I wanted to dig on was I thought it'd be kind of fun to do a little thought experiment here. Um Paul says put to death, right? Things. And so I thought it would be kind of neat to uh put some practical thoughts to this. So sometimes I think we pray for God to take something away while making it considerably easy for ourselves to return to it. At some point, a prayer needs to be followed by like a deleting an app or an action step. Yeah, or having a conversation. Right. And so I got some practical examples of how what we could put to death, and then I thought we could have fun kind of talking about how we could put it to death. Okay. Number one, pornography.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Um so there are um pro programs out there. Okay, like um uh one that I know of is called Triple X Church. And so you um if you want to, if you want to get rid of if you're really serious about this, this is the way to go. And I'll and because it the my understanding this way that this works is this it essentially it's like uh uh a filter on your internet and you put on your phone and all that kind of stuff, and it not just blocks and everything like that, but in when you you have accountability partners that you sign up along with it with that, and when you put in uh an appropriate search term or anything like that, it emails your accountability partner. And um it's funny because I had a friend who used it and uh who was also very much into politics, and so like they kept looking up Dick Durbin, and and I would get emails everyone. That was funny. But but I mean it it it does everything, like, and and again, it does require trust, it it has accountability, and so for a person to come to you and say, Hey, I'm really struggling with this and I really want to abandon it. And and so when you get an email, I need you to call me on that kind of situation, like that's an easy.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Yeah, and I think there's some there's some practical things too. First of all, recognize what is happening in that moment. It's probably a cry for intimacy. And so are are there times in your life where you're alone and that's a quick fix? Is it a control issue? There's a lot of mental stuff happening in that moment. Um and so being aware of that, I think the practical nature too of um, hey, this happens at a certain time of the night. And so maybe at that certain time of night I'm gonna put myself in a different spot, so I'm not in that same spot. I'm gonna remove that.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Um for those that are really struggling with it, there's a a great organization, I think it's called Stolen Valor. Um Theo Vaughn had the um the the the guy who runs it on his podcast a few weeks ago, and it's a it's a service for it's for men mainly uh that struggle with that, and it's a supposedly a really remarkable program. So um I think one thing is just not to recognize it's not just something that happens and then it goes like it's destructive, it um it can own you, and it's you're it's easy to think, well this isn't this isn't hurting anybody but myself. And that's not true. You're furthering uh um an institution that leads to oppression and and obviously terrible things with it.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

There's a lot of bad things with it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Okay, next one alcohol. Um you get drink all you but I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so so alcohol, um, if you struggle with it and it's a sin. Um uh I don't know. A well AA is yeah, a good program to get in the city.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Get in the program, get with people. Celebrate recovery is another one. Walk with people, yeah. How about gossip?

SPEAKER_03 23:34

Cut out your tongue. Um gosh, I I a lot of these are gonna be I think you can easily go to talk to tell somebody, but uh do you know your gossip if you're gossip? Like you know, like do you need it being pointed out first and then and then I think usually it's amongst friends or whatever, and so the friend just has to call you out on it when you're doing it. Because gossip tends to be a public-private thing, right? Like if I'm gossiping it's gonna be you and me talking, it's not gonna be uh a hundred prying eyes on me, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

I think part of it's recognized recognizing it's part of the recognization is like oh, what happens what happens when you share that story inside? Because more than likely you get a little bit of a rush. Oh, for sure. You get a little bit like ooh. I think if you notice that rush, that could be the sign of the spirit saying, Hey, maybe you're gossiping here. And that begins that. Uh what about uh anger?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Um I shouldn't have just dropped these.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

You shouldn't have no, you need to give me this list beforehand. Um gosh, anger uh okay. I'm gonna go uh Mr. Rogers, Daniel Tiger, um count like you know when you're getting angry. Like um take take that moment, count to five, and and and literally like anytime you can remove yourself from that. So this is something actually I deal with a lot as an educator. Um, is telling the kid you've got to remove yourself from that situation.

SPEAKER_04 25:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

Because the longer you stay in that situation, the more anger you're gonna get, and the less you're going to be able to control your actions at that point. And so, so uh that's good.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

That's good. I think part of it is recognizing your body what your body does. Yes. Because before something comes out, you'll notice a tightening, uh, a flushness, uh a heart rate. You'll notice something in your body that'll trigger that that that fight or flight. And then so when that happens, part of that is that's early enough to be like, okay, something just happened. I need to step back. Yep, I need to pull back.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

And and when I work with kids through this, like it's what happened. Okay, so what did and it does get down to because they don't like with kids, they don't recognize it. And and I'm gonna assume adults are at the same level. Like if you're struggling with this, you don't actually recognize what's going on. Right. Um, and so so sitting them down and saying, what happened beforehand? Like and what did you notice happened with you when that happened, and talk walking them through and talking, and you don't have to be a psychologist to do that, like it just is a good friend, like, hey, you're really struggling with this, let's talk how how you go through that. But yeah. Last one. All right, materialism. Cut up the credit cards. Um uh I I think it's similar in in a certain level to pornography nowadays. Well, no, because I'm thinking consumerism, not materialism. Um man, it's um take a break. Like, in all honesty, like I think uh having some of the stuff we have, like if we just set it aside and put it aside for a week or whatever and realize we don't really need that kind of stuff. I I almost think back to like um when our kids got when they were really young and they got like toys for uh as a baby for Christmas, like we wouldn't give them all the toys after Christmas Day. Like we'd take some and we'd put it away to the side, and then and then you know, when they kind of got bored with the ones that they had, like we'd rotate them out and they just never recognized or realized kind of situation. I don't know if that's the right thing. Right, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

So for me, I I thought about uh a couple years ago we had a guy come and speak and he talked about uh struggling with this and he didn't buy shoes for a year.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

Oh yeah, and then you talked about that. And I did that.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

So I for you now Audrey will say I did buy a pair of shoes, but they were hiking shoes for the hiking trip. Okay. They weren't like shoes for fun shoes. Yep. Um but yeah, it was like because I have a shoe, I had a few shoes. You love shoes, actually. I did. I'm much I will I will because of that now. But and honestly, taking that year off, it like you know, it it killed it, right? Or it killed it, it wasn't it was an aggressive step. And I think that's part of this is like if you really need to kill something, it's not just dancing around.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

It's like, oh, we're gonna kill it, we're gonna kill it. And it's having someone to hold you in the end, like everything has you have to have someone hold you accountable at it because you you're you're not you're gonna cheat yourself before any anything else. And so, like when you when you made that promise from the pulpit, you're like, hold me to this. And and I was waiting for that jacket to come back out. Stupid and I never saw it. So I'm like, well, I I I think he's holding to it. I haven't seen him cycle through that yet.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

So that's all I got from the sermon.

SPEAKER_03 28:17

So um yeah, I think um I think the only last couple questions, and just because I couldn't remember if you did this or not, but we used some pretty big church words, sanctification and justification. I didn't use justification, but no, but like sanctification. Sanctification was used. So, like, did I couldn't remember? Did you define that enough? Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

I think so, yeah. The process of the ongoing process of becoming like Christ.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Yeah, okay, all right, you did.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

And it's that process of that it takes time. Um that's that handshake of what he does in us, but also our effort. That's that kind of that that murky middle ground, like what do we do, what does he do?

SPEAKER_03 28:54

And because Paul says put to death, and there are actions we we do, but then also it's by his spirit that makes things aware and that we start to it's that handshake of, you know, yeah, and and and we work because God's working through us, right? It's it's it's not it because I don't think without God without God we couldn't do any of this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

One of my favorite lines is you're not fighting for an identity, you're fighting from an identity. Yes. And I think that's huge because again, that goes to that idea of like I've gotta earn this, I've gotta earn this, versus like I I am chosen, beloved, and holy for Paul. Um, and from that place I'm going to do these things. This was done for me. Now I from this I go and do that. And so when we can flip that, it um it shifts, it does something in our hearts, and I think that's yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

Yeah. I think I think too, like, there's the this strange overlap as Christians, right? Like we're we've been made new, but we're being renewed, and we will be fully transformed. Like there's this odd just this weirdness that exists in in and how we live as as Christians. And so, but yeah. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

So I'm got some quick fire at Port, yeah. I yeah, we can we can be there. You got more? No, no, no. I'm good. Quickfire, okay. What's something you thought you'd have figured out by this age, but absolutely do not?

SPEAKER_03 30:15

Too deep. Too deep. Okay. Uh no, no. Um uh gosh, that relationships still. I still struggle with relationships, but it's I struggle with emotion.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

So having some?

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Yeah, that's exactly it. Oh, and you want me to call you up?

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

I was like so for people who don't know, I was in the hospital last week.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

I didn't just go, I didn't visit you. I texted you. You did text me. But I'm like I was gonna tell you when you're in there to go visit. When you're in there. But I had like two other people.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

Yeah, I did. There was uh I had two elders visit me, actually. Um, uh he was going to, but he was moving his son into college and he's and he ran out of time. And I'm like, don't worry about it. Like, I really don't care if you visit me or not. But I was like, I don't gotta visit. But it was the first thing, I had your text messages and and it sounded like you're coming in, and and I'm like, just don't worry about it. And then you didn't come at all.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

I think it was so funny because I was honestly, I grabbed my keys and when I texted you Saturday, I was about to come because I'm like, okay, I got some time now. I'm gonna show you.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

No, I got them out. And you're like, I just left. I'm like, oh dang it.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

That's not good. No, it was funny. That was funny. I know. Um sorry that no, no, no, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

Um all right. Um sorry, I gotta I can't even read my my screen right now. Um go ahead. See what do you got?

SPEAKER_02 31:46

It's harder. Starting a good habit or stopping a bad one?

SPEAKER_03 31:49

Oh, um, I think I think stopping a bad one, in all honesty. Um They're both hard. They're both hard. Yeah. Because like there's there's psychology that shows like it takes 30 days to start a new habit, and and that's hard to do because you make one break in it and it's done. You're like, you have to restart the whole process over again. Um what's harder for you? Uh receiving grace or giving it? Receiving. Yeah, I I would think that I would think that also.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah, because then I owe you something. I don't owe anybody anything.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

So I know, and that and that's but but again, that's the reality that we struggle with as Christians with God. Like it's like we owe I owe you something, so I'm gonna do a X, Y, and Z. And it it does. Um how about this?

SPEAKER_02 32:33

I know I'm growing spiritually when that dot dot.

SPEAKER_03 32:37

Um I know I'm growing spiritually when life gets harder. Um, I think one thing we we talk about um as elders is especially we tell new elders, like when you come on, you've got a target on your back. And that's because you're doing something that is spiritually influenced it's influencing that spiritual warfare, and the enemy does not like it at all. And so I feel like I feel like life does get a little harder when you're growing spiritually because you're doing something the enemy does not like, and he's trying to hold you back, and um and that's where we have to persevere and we have to turn towards God and really like try to dig in and and beg for his mercy and grace at that point. So um who has permission to call you out?

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Um, I mean I I so I anybody can call me out. Whether I own it, whether I whether I care what they say is a different question. So that's true. Who whose opinion do I value? Yeah. I would say um Audrey's, obviously. For sure.

SPEAKER_04 33:46

I I agree.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

I think you you, I think uh Brian, the eld the elders here to a degree, the elders here, but more so like probably you, you and Audrey, Harth, uh, you know, um Brian. Yeah, there's a few people that I I whose opinion I would value. Um Sherry, probably. There's probably people that I would I would at least listen uh to Lord was they had the same. Everybody tells me what I'm doing, right?

SPEAKER_03 34:10

I know they do.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

So I get that so part of it's like, do I own what people say to me? And there's certain people I need to own what I do. I trust them, and so I own if you know. And sometimes I'll go to them with something and be like, hey, this is sad. Is this what you what you see? And then I trust that they can say, Oh, no or yes, or you know, maybe. Yeah. Uh but it's funny you say that because I did like I had ChatGPT a while ago. Uh I did this prompt where it was like, everything you know about me, list the things I don't see about me. That that my my my blind spots, and it was pretty harsh. And I I had like people read it and they agreed with it. And so it really I threw it out, but it was pretty it was pretty difficult.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

I remember you you told me about that, but I never read it, so I don't know about it.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

I wanted to bring it back out. It's honestly very scarily like accurate. So okay.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

I only go for the positive ones. Tell me everything you love about me.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Tell me how great I am. Last question for me one person living or dead besides Jesus who has modeled Christ-likeness for you?

SPEAKER_03 35:11

Um, my grandfather. Yeah. I I think like I'm sitting here having these conversations with you and 100% because of him. Like, I couldn't put it anywhere else.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Yeah, he's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

Um uh okay. Uh this one may not be a quick question, but but I think it's worth addressing. Is addiction just another word for sin?

SPEAKER_02 35:36

I don't think it's another word for sin.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

Um I think this is important because because we talked about things that are addicting, right? And that people can have an addiction too. But but if we're gonna be real, real about things, yes, it's a sin, but it's in my opinion at least, it's there there are diseases that right. And and I want people to be cautious about that and understand like like you can still work, I think recognizing it and working with that, yeah, right, and and and and knowing that that there are addictions that are diseases, and and most addictions actually turn into diseases because it's a whole like even the whole pornography thing, like it rewires your brain. And and so like it it it can be a disease in that manner, and so like it's not yes, it's a sin, but the treatment's gonna be greater sometimes than just getting on your knees and praying. Sometimes that works, right? Like, and and there are miraculous stories of people like I was cured like that, you know. The minute I accepted Christ, I I stopped smoking, swearing, and and chewing tobacco, you know, uh and just went that way. But smoking swearing and chewing chewing tobacco. I don't know where I was going with that. I meant drinking, but you know.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Um can't believe I didn't visit you. That's hilarious. It was you got me there. I know. I felt so terrible.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

I didn't because I like Oh, I yes you did because you brought it up. No, I just said, Did you want me to call you out? That was all I said.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Who else visited you?

SPEAKER_03 37:08

Huh?

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Who was the other elder?

SPEAKER_03 37:10

Vance. Vance and Vance and uh Mark. Well Mark works there, right? So he goes to everyone, right? Yeah, Mark's good. He's really good about that. And then yeah, Vance showed up, and Brian and Brian texted me saying, Oh, I'm gonna try. And then he ran late with with moving his kid into college, and uh and then there I sat all alone just waiting for Steve to try.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

Oh the master.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

Actually, I didn't want anyone to visit me because they never moved me out of the internet.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

You never had you never had a real room, it was like a home.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

And my wife even kept saying, like, did they move you yet? And I'm like, no, just stay home. Like your wife didn't visit you? That's funny. She came no, she came like three times, I think.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

Oh, that's funny.

SPEAKER_03 37:49

There was like one, she was like, I I really want to take the kids to go see a movie star. Just go. Like, what are you gonna do? Sit here and like you're gonna stare at the wall just like I'm doing at this point. Like uh But no, it was all good. Um next week.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Well this week, um follow devotional if you want to go follow along. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Smash that like button. Don't do that. Or tune us out. Like, I don't know. At certain point, yeah. Next week. Yeah, what's our next week? You got it. Oh, yeah, that's right. We were just discussing this briefly.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

If God love if God is love, why is there hell?

SPEAKER_03 38:27

This is a good one. This is a topic like not a good one. Well, it's good because it's so ignored as a topic that that it's good that we're addressing it kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

It's probably the one I l look forward to the least. That's why it's at the end.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

Did you really like it? Compare okay, so compared this to the one that we gave to Silas, which one would you rather?

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Silas is Silas is easy. That one's easy. Why did bad things happen? Yeah. I think that's very simple. I mean, I think that's very I think on a on a mental level I can understand that. And on a comp on an empathetic level and compassion, I can I can understand that the hell one's hard because there's a lot of like nuance to the word and a lot of different weird thoughts and like and okay. And so I think Yeah, I think I'm settling on a good takeaway, maybe, but we're still early. So ask me tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Ask you tomorrow? All right, I'll tell you I'll tell you what, I'll come visit you tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

I'm sure you will. Uh all right.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Well, thanks for watching, and uh and we'll see you next week. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Keep asking good questions.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

All right.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

We should have a theme song.

unknown 39:34

We tried that.