Not for Sunday Mornings
When the Sunday sermon isn't enough. Join us as we unpack what was spoken about on Sunday with all the extra stuff that didn't make it.
Not for Sunday Mornings
Why does God allow bad things to happen?
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Why do bad things happen, and what are we supposed to say when “I don’t know” feels like the only honest answer?
This week, Steve and Chris unpack Silas’ powerful message on suffering, Job, grief, unanswered prayer, and the temptation to offer easy answers when someone is hurting. They talk about whether everything really happens for a reason, the difference between joy and happiness, why questioning God is not the same as putting Him on trial, and what it means to simply sit with someone in their pain.
They also discuss a little girl who wanted to kick Jesus in the face, why Job’s friends may be more like us than we want to admit, and whether Steve should preach an entire year through Leviticus. Chris has already voted no.
This is an honest conversation about suffering, faith, and a Savior who does not watch our pain from a distance.
System. But whatever.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Well before we start, I want to start with a question.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I don't know if it's a bad piece of advice. It just wasn't great at the time. And it's it's like uh you're you'll make it through. Like it's not it doesn't feel comforting necessarily at that point, you know.
SPEAKER_03But um I should probably start with funnier questions than the questions.
SPEAKER_00You ask way too seriously questions. That's all right.
SPEAKER_03Okay, here we are.
SPEAKER_00So um I'm Chris and this is Steve, and welcome back to uh not for Sunday mornings. Uh so we are in our next episode, and this is our series on kids questions kids ask. And our question this week was why do bad things happen? I had to look that was bad. I apologize. I did, but I I I froze for a second.
SPEAKER_03This is interesting because this is one that neither of you or I preach. That is right, yeah. So we get to grade a stylus and he can't defend himself. So this is gonna be awesome.
SPEAKER_00It'll be fun on our part because there's no no hot seat for either one of us.
SPEAKER_03I will say to start, I'm even not blown smoke, not that I'm hoping he'll ever hire me, but um uh I think I have really thought about it. I think that might have been the best sermon I've ever heard. I mean, ever preached, maybe in my entire life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I would I I'm not even kidding. Because number one, like it, it was a hard sermon to begin with. Like, I'm glad I didn't have this one. I know you're glad you didn't have this one.
SPEAKER_03Well, no, I I I I had talked about it previously a few years ago.
SPEAKER_00We have, yeah, so but this is a difficult it was this is a difficult message because of the topic, and but yeah, he I was thoroughly blown away by it. Like yeah, not just his kind of not just the message, but like how he did it. Like he was very smooth and everything, and like it it just kind of flowed.
SPEAKER_03And it was very, very layered. He didn't touch on some things like he briefly talked about uh by his stripes were healed, and like that is such a deep line that he kind of glossed over. I mean, it it was very, very rich and multi-layered beyond what I think we just heard. And I I'm the way it was crafted, I was I was blown away. Honestly, I listened to it twice.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot more, yeah. But which is yeah, usually you you listen to it once and then I used to go twice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and and that's generally enough, but no, I agree. It was it was well presented, it was very in-depth. I think it was masterfully done in that he, like you said, wove those ideas in and not necessarily didn't stick on them, didn't land on them, you know, put them out there, which I think why I think that's a good thing is is if you're really sitting in the audience and you're really paying attention, it really should stir more questions in you. And and and I and I feel like the way he did it, it did that. And so now the goal is what you know to our audience members here that mostly I I think come from our congregation. Um I think there's three or four.
SPEAKER_02I don't think there is three or four.
SPEAKER_00Well, like I said, couples.
SPEAKER_02I've seen the numbers.
SPEAKER_00Um, but I think the I think the question to them and to the the people who sit sat in there is so what did you do about those questions? Did you go and go study more? Did you go find, you know, like really that's what we should be doing as we're as we're challenged and yeah, I think so. I think so.
SPEAKER_03I was I was I was I was blown away by that.
SPEAKER_00It was great.
SPEAKER_03It was a usually I like having like you or Daniel speak because it's easy to follow you guys. Because come on, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm a little bit, you know.
SPEAKER_03Now I gotta follow this guy.
SPEAKER_00Simple-minded people with simple-minded.
SPEAKER_03I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. So he did so uh it's gonna be a little bit different because we're not gonna be able to talk about correctly.
SPEAKER_00Right, and we can't ask him his thoughts or anything like that. But I think um I think we can I think the goal is we're gonna try to f follow a similar, but just it's gonna be more conversational instead of um you know filibustering and all that.
SPEAKER_03Um he first one of the first things he said was he says, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I have that too. All right. This is we don't talk just so everyone knows we don't talk, we don't talk about this beforehand.
SPEAKER_03You can tell by the awkward pauses. Yeah. Um so I thought, okay, so somebody comes into the office, they just lost their child, um, I don't know feels un incredibly unsatisfying. Um, but why is that actually a faithful answer?
SPEAKER_00Well, I I think it's more Okay, so I'm gonna start with this way. I think it's uncomfortable for us to say that. I think I think if you go to an average Christian and they and they're asked that question, why is suffering happening? I I think we we feel like we have to have an answer, right? And I think the answer can be I don't know. And I think we need to find solace and comfort in in that because there are a lot of things like we can defend our faith, but we just don't always know what's in God's plan. We don't and and this this is gonna be we gotta tip I'm gonna tiptoe a little bit here because I think this it opens to a bigger conversation. But I think um it it it feels like if you say I don't know like either like you're a bad Christian or something like that. Um I think I think it's okay to to lean into it because I think just because we don't know why the sufferings happen doesn't mean we don't understand the suffering, and we can lean into the empathy side of it more. And I think that's that's more important for us from a Christian standpoint is to look at um the empathy side and and like like Christ never explained why bad things happen to people, he but he leaned into the bad thing and and he comforted the person when that happened, right? Yeah. And I think if we're really gonna be Christ's followers and and do what we're do what our Lord has exampled for us, I think that's really where we need to lean into more. What more can I do for you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we grieve with those who grieve and rejoice with those who rejoice. And yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's um I thought it was a really uh neat way to start and kind of lower the temperature in the room and and then and then build from that, you know. Like and so yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I thought it was interesting his take on Job because for a long time Job was one of my favorite books of the Bible. Um not because of the whole Job suffering aspect, like I never that really never interested me in that book. It was more the second half of the book that was um more of my interest when God kind of rebukes Job for a little bit. Yeah um I always found that just an like I I found God's conversation in that part neither here nor there on on that. Um uh I feel, and this goes back to the I don't know, it's interesting because Job's friends are us, right? Like we feel like we need to rationalize and explain, try to find a rationale as to why that happened. But I think um I think the interesting part about Job is it answers, I think it answers the question of it's not a it's not a punishment. Yeah, you know, suffering's not a punishment, and it's it doesn't mean it's good, but it's not a punishment. Um, you know, so it was something interesting that I found in in the in the sermon as he was talking about it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, speaking of Job, he's um he said, Silas says, Job repents not because he asked questions, but because he demanded answers. And so is there a difference between questioning God and putting God on trial?
SPEAKER_00Oh, for sure. For sure. Because I think questioning j God is is part of our humanity, in all honesty. I mean, you go back all the way back to Abraham, right? And and you know, one of the first things is is and I always love it, is it his negotiating with God. Like, hey, can you save Sodom and Gomorrah? You know, if there's there's just 10, you know, give me give me and he like negotiates them down. It's not that God changes, God knows that Abraham's gonna do that, right? Yeah, but it but it's interesting to watch Abraham be bold in that, in all honesty. Yeah, yeah, so so but putting him on trial, I think, is a totally different thing because now you're accusing him of of doing something, and it's not really, he's not the author of that. And and so I think it's okay to say, why did this happen or what what's going on? How you know, trying to understand. I think when you come with the frame my framework of understanding, it's a totally different thing than than accusatory.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. He says uh he allows Job to vent. Is there anything we shouldn't say to God?
SPEAKER_00I don't think so. I mean, I what do you I I guess what's your your swear on that, huh? You ever swear at him? Um I don't know that I've ever sworn at God. I'm asking for a friend. I honestly I don't know that I've ever sworn at God. Like I think I think it's more I I don't know how angry I I I know I've been angry, but I don't know how angry if I've ever been that angry. I'm not an emotional guy. No, you're not no emotional guy.
SPEAKER_03Kind of pulled out of here. It's like, come on.
SPEAKER_00But uh no, I don't I don't think I've ever sworn at God, but I know there's been a lot of why, or like there's been pain, you know, when it's come to stuff, but uh um I don't know, I don't know if I've ever fell into the I accused him of something doing wrong. I'm not I'm not trying to say that to sound hobby, it's just yeah, one of those things. I have so that's okay. Like I but I but I but I get that. No, I mean I get it, and and I think that's the thing when you read Job, it's like Job doesn't, and it's like how could I understand how Job couldn't.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00In all honesty, like if we're gonna use Job as as the mark of suffering, like how Job could go through everything that he went through and have the crappiest friends in the world, you know, in all honesty, when you read it, it's like, man, they they lay on him. It's like he's already suffering, and then they they add another layer to that suffering. Like it's suffering reading what they're saying, and and uh so I get it. I just I don't think it ever hit me.
SPEAKER_03I got a question this week from a friend and he uh um so he he hinted around I'm I'm gonna read it this way, but I'll he'll you know, could God stop suffering? If God really is all powerful, why not stop this cancer, what this one accident, the one tragedy? Um if he knows who's going to be murderers and child molesters, why not have a miscarry before they're born? Like if why? How do we live with that?
SPEAKER_00Um I I think I think we have to live in an in-between space on that. Because I don't think in my opinion, I I don't we know God's not ever the author of sin because he's holy, he can't be. Um and I don't think it's apathy to to not do anything about it at the same time. But I think our and it goes back to I think what we were talking about earlier when we said I don't know, right? I I don't I and I I think Silas said it too, if I remember correctly. He talked about a puzzle piece and and right, and I've I've always kind of looked at the way God handles things in that regard, is and and the same analogy, like when you're putting together a puzzle, like if all you got is a single puzzle piece, you have no clue what that puzzle's about.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, unless you have the box.
SPEAKER_00Well, but that's the thing. But God has the box, right? Like, and that's the that's the problem, is we we don't have the box. And so, like, for us to sit here and say, um, you know, well, God doesn't do it because of this, or God doesn't do it because of that. I mean, we're we're speculating and we're guessing, and we're probably so far off from that picture. I think part of it is is that it's the same reason why sin exists, period, in the world. Like, it's not that God couldn't wipe out sin, he did actually, you know. Um, it just hasn't finished, right? And and that kind of goes into the story that we'll probably talk about that Silas told at the end, right? You know, the line he used was uh he's like he healed her, just not in her time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that was a great line.
SPEAKER_00And and I think it falls into something like that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think something we say too, as we're having these conversations, is a lot of these conversations don't happen this way. Like a lot of these are pastoral knee to knee and eye-to-eye conversations. So it's hard. I don't want people to hear this and it could be like cold, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I I definitely're black and white.
SPEAKER_03And there's like, no, this a lot of these are like intimate conversations. We should have it in person, not like over a podcast. You know, I mean, when it comes to the suffering and the pain and the hurt and the loss of anything, um, I don't want to come off cold in this moment, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00No, I agree. I think I think this conversation that we're having and that people are going to listen to. Um I think it's important because I think it brings out it it's first of all, it's removed from the moment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. So it's always easier when when you're not in the moment to have a conversation like this. And it's again, it goes back to when we say I don't I'll go back to that first question that I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's not, it's not being cold, it's not being callous, it's being honest and truthful in that. And so so it's it's we're never going to be able I here's the hard part is we're never gonna be able to assign a reason ever. This church, what are we now in this building? 15 years, 51 years. No, no, in this building, uh 55 years, yeah, it's whatever. A long time. It's a long time, it's been over 10 years.
SPEAKER_03That's like yeah, 15, 16 years.
SPEAKER_00Back when so before we moved into this building, we were uh doing church in the movie theater now. Um for people, yeah, for people who don't know though, um, and we had a year, um it was a bad year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we had three deaths within like the span of like two or three months, and two of them were children. And how do you how do you answer why to that? How do you answer how could this happen? How could a loving God do that? You you can't. Like, there's just no way we can rationalize that. It doesn't, it doesn't mean that God doesn't love, it doesn't mean that God isn't holy, it doesn't mean that God's not all powerful, which is funny because I thought like Silas's opening to the sermon, like I thought I'd be answering a question like, could Jesus microwave a burrito that's so hot that he can't touch it, yeah. Yeah, like it's one of those types of questions, right? It's it's a philosophical question that we we just kind of have to wait to get the answer to. Um and it's hard, and nobody wants that because when you're in that moment when you're in that moment, you want the answer to that to that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because you're you're looking for closure, you're looking for ra a rational explanation for it. And I I just don't think our puny little minds can understand the rationale sometimes behind it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I just have a couple questions left. Uh one is like um the sermon, I think, naturally raises the question everything happens for a reason. Uh do you believe that?
SPEAKER_00Um that's that's a loaded question. Um Yes and no. Uh I I do because I th I think everything has a purpose somehow, somehow. Um I I don't think that I don't think things are truly a hundred percent random. And and I and I would even speak to that like from a science standpoint. Like when when I study science, there's not a lot of true randomness that happens. There is, but like it's very difficult to to point it out, and because you can usually find a cause or rationale behind what's happening. So I think, and again, this is where my puny little human mind comes in and says, I don't think that randomness is really there. I think there's a rationale and a reason. What that is, I can't tell you at all. I can't even begin to come in and tell you why that is, but but it is.
SPEAKER_03Well, the last question Ivan, I don't know where you're at, but I want to finish with the story of our little girl. So if you have other things, uh what I want to Oh, you want that to be the last part before we get to our question, our quick fire questions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think uh um and maybe we already addressed this, but the the passage that that uh James, right? Consider it pure joy, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So um So that was brilliant because again, we talk about context a lot here, and he uh brilliantly, brilliantly um dissected that to explain what wisdom literature is and isn't, and how we read Yes, we read texts again.
SPEAKER_00I think we read the Bible as though it is it's all one thing. It's all one thing. There's there's only one writing style to it.
SPEAKER_03So when you read wisdom literature, there's a lot of hyperbole. And so then to pull bin, pull in uh Proverbs, he pulled in a couple proverbs to talk about that, and then showed you know the comparison here in James again. I think again very deep, very deep, and um, but it was able to do that, I think, so smooth. And again, I when he got done speaking, I said, I want to speak like that. Like that's I was just blown away by how easy he made it look. And really, if you want to if people really want to study that, they go down quite a bit on that and oh I agree.
SPEAKER_00I thought I thought it was one of the more brilliant moments of the of the sermon. Yeah, um, so based off that, I just had a couple questions. Um that that verse. Um number one, um I guess how how do you define because he I think he he made this as a point, but how do you define the difference between joy and happiness?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think happiness is always based on happening's the word itself. And so whatever is happening affects my happiness, you know. So if it's a good day then or bad day, you know what I'm doing. Where joy I think runs uh just joy is below the surface of everything. So I can be joyful in the midst of sorrow, and I can be joyful in the midst of pain, and not again, not celebrating the joy pain or but there's just a underlying current of like of joy that carries carries through that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the the the old song that we probably both know that learned that I've got the joy, joy in the power of my heart, right? Like it's a it's right there underneath the surface, it's there and it and it's constantly there. But yes, I can't.
SPEAKER_03And it doesn't come out, and I think it comes out in tears often. It doesn't that's the thing I I think I asked you a question, what does somebody say to you, um, worst piece of advice? The worst thing I get is like pray about it, or like, oh God, like go give me that garbage. Like I think that's where I think where it's like this fake that's not real joy comes out in tears. Like I can cry and weep and mourn with somebody. I went to the hospital today with a guy who's gonna have open heart surgery this week. That's painful, that's terrible. Like and but there's still a spirit of joy underneath that, but it it's not that fake, uh everything's gotta be all right, just pray about it. Come on, man, give me be real with me, you know what I mean? And that's why I think real joy is underneath that surface. Real joy allows me to cry with you and to sit with you and to mourn with you and to to try in whatever minimal way I can to carry a little bit of what you might be carrying, uh knowing I can't, you know. Be present with you. That's where the joy, real joy comes. It's not putting on a smile.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's I think about like we had a mutual friend that passed away years ago, and um Who?
SPEAKER_03Les Oh, Lesiko.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he was the man, yeah, and and he was amazing, and like gosh, I remember the last visit I had with him, and I remember when I found out like I I was actually in Disney World when I found out that he had passed. Yeah, and it broke my heart, but at the same time, like like I the reason why it broke my heart is because there was so much joy for the man, and I still there's still stories I can tell about him that I laugh at that at those stories um because because of who he was and and his belief in Christ, in all honesty. Like um, and and and because of my belief in Christ. Um uh so I think you kind of answered my other question was can grief and joy coexist? That's because I'm good. You are you you did you did well on that one. Um we really don't go over any of this. No, we don't we don't potentially said this season, no talking, like which is hard for us, but um it's been the best season of my life So far. Yeah we've got a new season we're coming up on. Um how about we suffer because Jesus suffered?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What what's your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_03I think that's beautiful. I think that's one of the most beautiful things. I remember there was an incident, and I'm not gonna share it because it's very personal to my house, but there was a painful moment in raising my children, and I remember uh praying with them in the middle of that and saying this is where we meet Christ is in the pain, is in the hurt, is in the This is where we meet him at is in this moment where it's so dark and so deep. This is where he is at. And so um that for me is just yeah, of course, yes, of course, of course.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I th in in fact I think That's what James was getting at in all honesty. Like if we're gonna go back and tie it into that James passage, I think that was James's message. Yeah. Is that we suffer because Jesus suffered. And it's not that we and here's the funny thing, because like you look at other um not religions, but other um practices of religion, and and you go back even to medieval times, like people inflicted suffering on themselves because they mistook that James passage, right? Like the idea of of hair shirts or self-flogging, and and you even still have people who crucify themselves today um because they want to suffer with Christ, and it's like that's not the point. Like that it's not that physical suffering, it's it's it's different.
SPEAKER_03Well, what people don't know is if you took your shirt off, you actually are wearing a hair shirt because you're like a bear with all that hair.
SPEAKER_00You're mistaken for someone else because I am definitely not that person. I think I think you're yeah, I think you're you're uh pushing pushing on that was who I was thinking of.
SPEAKER_03I do, man. Oh, he's hairy.
SPEAKER_00Um all right, I'm at the story.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so so Silas finishes uh again masterfully. The story about a little girl who uh has cancer, and um and he again walks through it so wonderfully, doesn't share the details and all that, but comes to the point where the little girl asks mom, um, why isn't Jesus healing me like he does in the stories you read in the Bible, which is brilliant. And then she says, uh, when I meet Jesus, the first thing I'm gonna do is kick him in the face. And I think that is remarkable. And it it got a laugh in the room, purposely, again, as a communicator, he's setting you up and knock you down. So he gets that, and then mom comes back and mom says, I think uh Jesus would let you do that.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03Um and so what does that story teach us about the heart of Jesus?
SPEAKER_00Well I think it's what you know, going back to my message from last week, it's what makes Christ the perfect sacrifice. And I think it it teaches us I think I think the mom is drawing from wisdom um in in her response to that. Because Christ suffered, right? Christ knows before he even suffered on the cross, he knew what it was like to be hungry, he knew what it was like to be thirsty, he knew what pain was like, he knew he knew what heartbreak was like, he knew he he he was and and it m was what makes him the perfect sacrifice for us is because he knows us, he knows literally everything, what it's like to be human, he knows those pains, he knows those joys, he knows everything.
SPEAKER_03And so I think um Yeah, I think I mean I think you see it in the woman uh cut caught in adultery where he bends down, he writes in the sand and and he's he's sitting sitting with her. I mean he lowers himself to this woman's position and becomes one with her in that moment as far as eye level and peepers' level and and you know what does he write in the sand? Maybe he writes the names of the disciples who are gonna desert him, like everyone deserted her. I mean, I don't know. Maybe he connects with her though on a level, obviously then challenges her and pulls her to something greater and all all that. But in that moment of of hurt and sadness, he is there um right alongside, and so he knows what it feels like to get kicked in the teeth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and I think and falsely accused. On the other side of that though, too, is not only does he understand where we're not only would he understand where that girl is coming from but the whole his whole mission here about love, right? And it would just be the most outward expression of love from him. I mean, he you know, he preached about forgiveness, right? And and how many times we should forgive and and and he and the phrase we typically pull from from that message is turn the other cheek, right? And um it just would be the perfect it just would exemplify that perfectly because he he knows that she's angry and that she's upset.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I don't think it ha like I don't believe that it would ever happen. You know, I think that's a earthly sentiment and I think it's an earthly thought. Um but but I also believe that if we could hold on to those and be in his presence, I he he definitely would accept that. Um I don't know how you do it because I know like I just envisioned I don't even know how I'm gonna get up off my knees at that moment, but um well we finished now with quick fire questions. Is that is that are are you ready to go to that?
SPEAKER_03Well, that's all I got. You got other stuff?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well I did. I had a couple c a couple other things that I don't know. We just started. Um so I guess one of my questions that I just wanted to push back a little bit on, um, just he talked about perseverance, right? Um and it was an interesting conversation. So so does suffering always produce perseverance? Oh, does it always yeah, yeah. It's like in some level, it it may not be in the faith, but in some level do you feel like it it does that?
SPEAKER_03I think so. I think I mean, right, if you're hurting, you you get over it or you die, and so you persevere, right? I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I mean like I don't know. I yeah, I I I I was trying to think through that a little bit because I'm just on a if I stub my toe, it hurts for an hour.
SPEAKER_03I'm persevering for that hour. So I think on that simple level, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think like I think though it's it's for me, I was what my thought process went into you either persevere in the direction you're going or you persevere the opposite direction.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you get better or better, right? And so yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um so I don't know, that was just something that I had. Um uh oh, uh simplistic blame. You kind of asked that question. John 9, right? In the um disciples were asking why the man was born blind. Um and so I think Jesus warns us against doing that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um because he he asks, like, who sinned, this man or or his parents, right? Because they would assign it suffering, and again, it goes back to Job's friends, right? What you do wrong, they earned you this prize, you know, that's that's horrible. And and so Christ does warn against that, and I think that's important because uh I I don't think Silas mentioned John 9. No, no, no. Um, but I think it's an important passage that we can learn a lot from um from there. Um how about this? Uh God doesn't merely observe suffering, he opposes it. Do you do you think that's true?
SPEAKER_03Oh, I think so. I mean he loves us, and so how would he want us to see us suffer? I think you know you've got that yeah, I I think he opposes suffering. I I hope so. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00No, I I I think so. I just had that idea. Yeah. Um as a thought.
SPEAKER_03So great question for it.
SPEAKER_00It was a conversation. Try to try Yes, we agree. All right, move on.
SPEAKER_03Um I read this book this week called uh um Where is God When It Hurts by Philip Yancy. It was written like 40 years ago. And uh he talks about the benefit of pain and how as Americans we uh run away from pain. We try to cover it up so we take medication when something hurts, and we but pain is necessary. Uh pain is good, it's part of the process. It's it's it's good. And he talks a lot about lepers and uh uh this doctor told a story about how they'd wake up and their toes would be gone and you couldn't figure out what is going on. And uh what happens in the middle of the night, the rats would eat off their toes and the people wouldn't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you can't feel it because of the.
SPEAKER_03And so that was like the thing was like pain is needed for a reason. And there's a reason for pain. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I forgot that he talked about that because again, my mind went into science and like the all the years I taught anatomy and physiology, like trying to explain to kids like how important pain really is. It is like because and really like you you leprosy is is a disease most of us don't even think exists anymore nowadays because it's curable.
SPEAKER_03It's coming back, don't worry.
SPEAKER_00Is it leprosy part two?
SPEAKER_03What else is coming back? Smallpox or what's the one smallpox is what's the one that got came back?
SPEAKER_00Mumps, measles, all of them are. Um but in my mind, um it it's not leprosy. Like a common disease that we see nowadays is MS, yeah, that does that same thing where you lose that feeling, and and and that's one of the the really bad parts about MS is is that you stop getting pain reception and all that, and and you can't react to the world. Yeah. Um and that's what pain is. Pain tells you two things. Number one, that you're hurt, because you don't always know you're hurt, right? And number two, that um there's something that need that's going wrong. Yeah. And and so um, yeah, I I think that's an important that is an important part of pain at that point. Um, I did have a pastoral question for you. Okay. Um pastor. You well, I mean, you might have to be a question.
SPEAKER_03Play one, I play one on TV.
SPEAKER_00And I think this is a question that people I think I don't know if you I'm sure people have, but have people ever come to you and say, like, in a personal question, like, why has God allowed this to happen to me? I'm sure that's a question that you've gotten, right? Um, and so the question is how when somebody asks a question like that, um, how do we determine whether they're asking for um an explanation or they're seeking help. So they're asking just not to suffer alone in that situation. Like, how do you how do you discern that? Do you get you understand what I'm asking you? Okay, so like sometimes people will come and ask questions because they actually want an answer to that question. And I think I think when it comes to big questions like that, I don't know that we're I think there's also these opportunities that they're looking for comfort, and maybe it's not comfort in wisdom and knowledge, but comfort in just having that person there and being present. But they're afraid to ask for hey, can you just sit with me or can you just be with me? And so they come in, that's their their 90% is why why is this? But their their actual ten, you know, their ten percent that they're leaving on the table is can can you just be with me?
SPEAKER_03So how do you discern it's like so I'm not smart enough to discern so um like that? So anytime anyone comes with that, I mean just my posture is just to sit and and we can work through some answers and try, but answers aren't going to at the end of the day, an answer is not going to take the pain away. Like a an answer is not going to remove an answer is not gonna bring the the child back. Answer is not gonna it's it's not. It's not so yeah, sure, we can intellectually Yeah, sure. But I also I think I think a lot of that is just in that conversation of processing and having somebody to process with and talk with. And again, I'm not a psychologist, so that part I don't but the spiritual side of it, sitting with somebody, praying with them, being with them, letting them they're not alone. I think that all kind of plays into that entire conversation. So I don't know if if it really matters the reason they c come again. I think deep down an answer is not gonna suffice. Just because they know, even if they did know, it's not gonna help.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think the reason why I was asking that is because I think number one, as a guy, we always want to solve the problem, right? Yeah, that drives me crazy. It it and it's hard. Like it's it's just I don't know why we're wired that way, but I feel like I'm not a guy.
SPEAKER_03I push I I do I do, I have been getting more and more comfortable with sitting in the that's not try to fix it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's something you have to learn how to fix it.
SPEAKER_03For sure. That's just it.
SPEAKER_00But I think again, I think there's that uncomfortability that people have. And so I I I was just asking, because I I feel it's important that people hear that. Yeah, yeah. That it's not about when they ask that question, it's about what we do in that process of that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean I was at a I was at a youth retreat a few weeks ago and one of my my new friends asked me, Why does why did God make my path so hard and the healing so difficult? I'm like, man, what do you what do you what do you say to that? I mean, what do you know? What do you say to that? I mean, like, you know, you sit, you listen, you pray, you talk, you you know, it's just uh being present, you know, and helping her to see the uh uh God redeems everything. I do believe God redeems everything. I was like, I was able to tell a story about my kitchen table and how growing up that table wasn't what it should have been because of my family situation. But it since then, God has redeemed that kitchen table. And as a family, we had uh dinners at the table every s every day, and it was a thing, and it became a special moment conversation with so he redeemed that which was broken, and I think he will redeem that which is broken, whether it's this side of heaven or next. Um he will restore all things. Um But those are those won't help in the middle of the pain, you know. And so part of it's just sitting and crying and grieving and having that heart of like, man, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's easy to rush to like an intellectual thing and then think you're done with it. And that's I think where the coldness some people come in. Well, God does XYZ, so that's it. Well, you're a jerk. I mean, you're a jerk. I mean, but you're a jerk. I mean, you're a jerk.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean you're gonna look at that little girl and tell her, Well, that's God, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, shut up, you shut up, dude. Like, what like come on, man. Like sit with the person, be with them, grieve with them. I think that's I think that's that shows me a person that hasn't suffered.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's if you suffered, you know what it's like. Yeah. I I think part of it, and if you haven't had to suffer in that regard, I think I think that response comes from uncomfortability.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't know I don't really try to be mean to the person, but you know, I think I think because we I think we are very uncomfortable with pain. Yeah. And and so much so we're uncomfortable with pain in ourselves, and we're even more uncomfortable with pain in other people. And we we don't know how to react, and so we we try to pull the quickest way that we can get away from it, and and it's not the right, it's not good. And I think that's where we as Christians need to really work on that and figure out um how it is that we we can be empathetic in that.
SPEAKER_03Toby Mack uh shares a story. Um his his his 21-year-old son uh lost his life and and Toby found out about it and he came home and he's just he's not getting out of bed, and he just can't get out of bed. And one of his good friends is actually his worship pastor, came over to the house and just played the piano just for the days. Just played worship music on the piano, just played the piano, just filled the house with music. That's like I mean, I get chills every time I think about that. That's not having an answer, just being with them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just going like if they they want to lay in bed, and I've seen it and done in in media time and time again, but it's it's that person just laying in bed and you go over and cook dinner. Yeah, whether they sit and eat with you or not, you bring them a plate, like it's it's being present. I and I agree with that wholeheartedly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00All right, we're gonna do quick quick fire questions. All right, what do you got?
SPEAKER_03Quick fire. Favorite book on suffering.
SPEAKER_00Favorite book on suffering?
SPEAKER_03Um I think we should have like a shock system. If you don't answer quick enough, you get shocked.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I don't know how many books I've read on suffering. Like Joe. Job's my favorite book on suffering. That is not a book on suffering? Uh how about Ecclesiastes?
SPEAKER_03You're so lame.
SPEAKER_00I don't what I don't have a good I don't have a good one.
SPEAKER_03What's The Problem with Pain by C. S. Lewis?
SPEAKER_00I haven't read that. It's in my channel.
SPEAKER_03I just came across God When It Hurts by Philip Yancy.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, you just read that one. That's not fair.
SPEAKER_03In preparing for this discussion. All right, you got some from me, or mine.
SPEAKER_00Um mine are gonna be a little bit easier for you, hopefully. Who's more frustrating, Job or his friends?
SPEAKER_03Oh, um who's more frustrating? Yeah. Oh, I don't. I don't know if any I don't I don't think any of them's frustrating, honestly. Like I think his friends are how his friends would act, and I think I don't know how Job could be frustrating. He sat there and took a beating. Um I don't think any of them I I I I'm not a good guy to ask that question because I see both sides Yeah, I know. So I I don't think I don't know frustrated with the friends and I don't because I am his friends, and I would want to be a little bit more than a little bit of a fair and that's the frustrating thing.
SPEAKER_00But I get it.
SPEAKER_03I understand it, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, go.
SPEAKER_03Oh, is there a Christian cliche you wish people would stop saying?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, I'm not getting fed. I know that's not that's off our topic, but that is a cliche I I cannot stand at all. Um Job Ecclesiastes or Lamentations?
SPEAKER_03What about them?
SPEAKER_00I don't know. It's like Cloud Mountain pick. Just pick what?
SPEAKER_03Pick what?
SPEAKER_00Just pick one.
SPEAKER_03Just pick one? Like to do what? Like I like it, I don't like it.
SPEAKER_00Whatever. However, you feel like answering it. Lamentations. Lamentations. Very good. I feel like that's an underused person.
SPEAKER_03That was a question?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_03My last question for you is uh should I preach the entire year on an Exodus?
SPEAKER_00No. What was the one that we were talking about? Uh Leviticus.
SPEAKER_03Yes, Leviticus. No. I want you to know I've already got 20 sermons.
SPEAKER_00I'm proud of you for that.
SPEAKER_03I I don't think I get to 52, but I can get to 20.
SPEAKER_00You can get to 20, you can't get to 52?
SPEAKER_03Maybe. I got to 20 right now.
SPEAKER_00And if you can get to 20, it's a longer book. What are there like 30 some odd chapters in there?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, about that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so. Um That was my last question. Which biblical character asks the best question?
SPEAKER_03Jesus.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's an easy one.
SPEAKER_03Because it's all he does. If you read the number of questions he asks versus statements he makes, it's a ridiculous amount of questions. And so people that say I ask too many questions, I'm just being like Jesus.
SPEAKER_00Um Let's see if I got another one for you.
SPEAKER_03Uh I answer these questions fast.
SPEAKER_00You do. Except for whenever you're like, I don't know what that means. It's just a dumb question.
SPEAKER_03This is the longest airtime error.
SPEAKER_00What what uh what hymn or song best speaks to suffering?
SPEAKER_03Um I have mine. Um I think uh there's a beautiful song, Hold Me Jesus, by Rich Mullins. Um chorus is like, Hold me, Jesus, because I'm shaking like a leaf. You've been my king of glory, would you be my prince of peace? And I think that's just such a beautiful line. He opens like sometimes my life just don't make sense at all. The mountains look so big, but my faith just seems so small. I think that's such a just a beautiful song. There's like a loneliness to it, and um, it's just beautiful. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um bad off the dome.
SPEAKER_03That is that's good. I like that.
SPEAKER_00I all started singing, but my mine is uh It Is Well.
SPEAKER_03Okay, yeah. It is Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um it just the even the opening line like when peace like a river, right? And and when sorrow like sea billows flow, like that's yeah, just power.
SPEAKER_03It is very powerful, very powerful.
SPEAKER_00So, anyways, okay. So um let's say that we're done for this one. Thank God. And uh we'll uh see the see you next week.
SPEAKER_03Well, the beautiful thing about this is we made the people suffer.
SPEAKER_00We did. So we taught. So now everyone's been on the suffering end of so next week we have a fun sermon.
SPEAKER_03I am actually so excited. I haven't spoken in two weeks, and so I am I feel bad for the worker, actually. I feel bad for the people that have to listen to this because I am fired up. Like I am never been this far ahead in a while, and like I am I could preach today. Like I am all I am ready to go.
SPEAKER_00Um we're recording late this week, too.
SPEAKER_03Recording to Tuesday, so I am close to done. I could do it right now. Okay. Um, I might do an old manuscript and try off the dome.
SPEAKER_01That'll be fine.
SPEAKER_03I feel like I own it really well, and I think it's a fun conversation. The conversation is um it started with a question was the little kid or the child asked, If Jesus lives in my heart, why can't I hear him? And so the idea is how do I hear God, or how do I hear Jesus? And so um I'm gonna have a lot of fun. We're gonna look at uh Samuel's calling and it's it's awesome. And we're gonna do a fun thing with scripture this week where I think people are gonna stand up when we read and something different. I know, yeah. Because I wanna I wanna elevate scripture. I uh I want to do it so it's not like we don't do it every week, but this week there's a reason for it. And so um, I got some fun stories in there, I I feel, and um I hope I don't have too much. That's why I have to write it out because I I feel like I might have too much.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that'll make a package. That goes back to words again because you you are at 4,500, four four thousand, something like that. Yeah, yeah. So that's fun.
SPEAKER_03I'm really excited. So that's that's excited for that. We also have the blog you can follow along.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you know what you forgot was uh Sunday you forgot to mention our devotional.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's what I meant. The blog, yeah, the devotional. Yeah, yeah, you can yeah, you can watch if you can download the app, Lincoln Way Christian Church app, you can follow along. Every day there's a devotional thought for the that ties with the sermon. Um, so and we got that fixed. I guess it wasn't working, I found out, and it's working today. So I fixed it.
SPEAKER_00You just found out like we're four weeks into the thing, and that's something nobody's reading it. That tells you nobody's reading it.
SPEAKER_03So that's pretty awesome. So no, it's all fixed now. Everything's up and running, so that's all going good. So yeah, so it's gonna be. I can't wait. Next week's gonna be awesome.
SPEAKER_00Can I can I before we just say one last thing? Like, I do want to celebrate we had a baptism on Sunday, and that's always amazing when we do that. So a surprise. It was a surprise.
SPEAKER_03I want to get baptized, and the water was cold. It was, but doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_00That's all right. It was awesome, it still happened, so it's really cool. All right, well, thanks for tuning in this week, and uh hopefully we'll see you next week.
SPEAKER_03Keep asking good questions.
SPEAKER_00All right, see ya.
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