SPEAKER_01 0:00

All right. Um when you're ready.

SPEAKER_04 0:02

I mean, I don't know. I think I'm I hope we're recording and everything. I really hope this works.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Me too. We'll see. It's an experiment. Yep. All right. Well, um, welcome to again to Not for Sunday mornings. This is uh Sunday morning. It's not Sunday morning for sure. Um, and it is our third season of doing a podcast based on our summer series. Yep. Um, and so this summer series that we have is uh questions kids ask. It is. Um so uh if you are one of our two people we know that watch regularly, uh welcome back. Uh two people? I well they they're in the same house, so it's it's one view, but it's two people.

SPEAKER_04 0:43

Uh yeah, it's something.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

It's something. Maybe maybe we'll see. Yeah, no, it'll be fine. I'm excited. It is good. So um, well, welcome back. Uh my name's Chris, and if this is your first time watching, um, and this is Steve. Um, and so yeah, let's start talking.

SPEAKER_04 0:58

Um we got a new studio.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

We do, yep. New look to the studio this this time.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

Yeah, we got some cool signs, we got toys.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

You brought toys in? You brought a cookie jar that's hiding behind me. Yeah, McDonald's.

SPEAKER_04 1:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

So we're excited. We are excited, we're grateful to get to do this together.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Yeah, always always love it.

SPEAKER_04 1:17

We're just continuing the conversation from Sunday. If you didn't get a chance to watch the sermon yet or listen to the sermon yet, go and do that. Um, you can find it uh everywhere, I think. And uh uh yeah, like Chris said, we're doing a series on the question questions kids ask.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Yeah, so this was uh interesting because when we were building this series and looking at the questions that kids ask, like they're interesting questions. And and um I think you know, one thing that you pointed out in the sermon was um kids ask the question, and but there's just bigger and deeper meanings behind those questions.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

Yeah, I think so. I think kids make it real simple, but really beneath beneath that simplicity is an actual you know, deep difficult question.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

There were, yeah. So like as we were trying to like put them together and look at them, like we really came up with some deep themes that um that I really think adults dig into or or hold adults back. And and and that's really the heart behind this is trying to to help adults to to really understand like it's okay to ask questions, number one, and and it's okay to not have a full answer. And I think this week's really not having a full answer is uh is uh a key takeaway um from your from your message when we when we looked at it. But um, but yeah, so uh I guess anything come up after the service, after after the message, anyone say stuff to you or anything?

SPEAKER_04 2:46

Yeah, yeah, I had a few comments. Uh uh one uh very wonderful lady uh said that now she has more questions than what she started with. So that was uh that's good though. That's good, that's good. Yeah. And then uh a friend too came up and he uh shared a story that uh he had heard David Platt, who's uh another minister share. And uh so I I wrote it down because it's really remarkable. He he was uh speaking to some Muslims uh on a mission trip, and he said, uh, when I fell in love with uh my wife, did I send her someone else to tell her I loved her? Uh did I send someone else to propose marriage? And they he said um they answered, no, in matters of love, one must go himself, not send somebody else. I thought how perfect that is with what Christ and God has done for us. He sent his son. Yeah. Um and I thought it was just really, really special. And um, I wish I would have learned that earlier in the week, it probably would have been in the sermon, but but I'm glad now I'd get to share that. And it really is just a great I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

I like that. That I mean, yeah, that's that's profound.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

Um yeah, it was awesome, it was awesome, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

For sure. Um yeah, I thought, you know, it was interesting. Um just the idea that that how we picture God really should affect everything about us. Like and and God is so vast, it's hard to imagine every aspect of him at every point. And so like I know we when we do picture God, we like tend to dwell on certain characteristics of his more so than others. And and I and to it it just it's tough because it minimizes who he really is and what he really is. And and so but but yeah, I thought it was kind of an interesting, you know, thing that you uh brought into there. Um because it's important, it's important how we in envision God. I mean, literally a whole whole branch of study called theology is based on that is is picturing that. So um I liked your quote from Augustine. Um it is. I I think it's uh I think I think there's a lot to that.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Yeah. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Oh just okay, so the quote if if you haven't listened and chose not to follow directions to go back and listen was uh if you can comprehend it, it's not God. Yeah, right. So like there's there's so much to that because again, it goes back to God's so vast it's almost impossible. And I know for me personally, like I I have given up trying to comprehend like the Trinity. Like I just it it's beyond my my knowledge and and and it but it but it doesn't mean that I I stop believing in it. It doesn't mean that just because I can't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And so like I think as a scientist or person with a science background, um for me it my job is to understand and comprehend everything. And there are points where you just run into a wall and it's like, well, what's the end? What's the next picture you know that comes in and you can't get that? You don't just abandon it because of that. I think some people do. I think people when they can't comprehend things, they just walk away from it. And and and um, but to understand like it's okay. It's okay that you don't comprehend, you don't understand the full picture of what God is, because if we can get the small little glimpse and picture and pieces, we can carry on with that. You know, yeah, yeah. It's big enough.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

So yeah. So what uh what'd you leave out?

SPEAKER_04 6:18

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Or do what did you did you have more to put in?

SPEAKER_04 6:22

No, I left, I left, I left a few things out. I think I was trying very hard. I don't think I did a great job of trying to express uh the hugeness of God that is seen in the old testament uh versus the flesh of the new testament. And so I think you see this earlier, you just mentioned how big God is so big and is so big as we can understand. Yes, yes, yes. But then also he he comes in the form of a baby that has to be held and touched, and and so there's this nearness and closeness um to this big God. And I I kind of want my hope was to uh for the people to be overwhelmed with the the largeness of God, but then also for that to then uh bring them into the closeness of God and be like that's so amazing that God would would uh come close. Uh one of the things I didn't talk about, I I tried sometimes I get going on like picking words out and it gets a little I feel I feel like it's like a little showy and it's really doesn't benefit anybody but me. Sure, yeah and I don't I don't know. I think it's sometimes it's kind of jerky, but one a word I did leave out was the word uh dwell, um, where he says uh God dwelled with us or moved into the neighborhood is another way it's written. And that word is a schino, and it's a great word. It's only five times in the Bible mentioned uh here, and then four times in Revelation, which we're gonna have to talk about Revelation next week, but that that's fine. But uh it's that idea that um God he moved into the neighborhood, he came in. And and the and the craziness of that is like the Greeks would have seen God as like the Zeus, you know, all powerful, huge, far away. And even the the Jewish face, Yahweh uh would never come near to people. I mean, it was always out there, never here, you know. I mean, go to the temple. It was and so the fact that this God now dwells among us, and it's it's really, really, I think, beautiful and wild. And um, and there's a whole nother uh string, again, I my mind's kind of running ADD and stuff, but um uh where uh Jesus is getting ready to leave, and then he says, uh Thomas, uh he says, I'm the way, the truth, and life. Uh no one comes to the Father, you know. And then they go back and forth, and um he's like, Well, how do we know the way? And then Jesus is like, You've seen me, you've seen the Father. And they do that, he does this whole thing. And then he ends up going into the whole, well, when he leaves, the Holy Spirit's going to come and dwell in us again. Different word, but same uh idea that now God dwelled in the temple, now he dwells in this temple. And it's just a I think a fun little little thing. I also didn't dig too far on Paul. I just threw that line in there about where Paul in Colossians he says Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. Again, real cleverly written. And um there's a whole section Paul expounds that on. And I didn't I had time and I just felt it was gonna go sideways, so I didn't didn't do any any of that either. But otherwise not too whole much. I mean, it was it's it's a difficult I I this series is really difficult for me because I think it's I love questions, but I also I'm okay with the questions not being answered, and I hope the people are as well, because a lot of these questions are not cut and dry, and there are and so I I I I hope that I hope that helps people and doesn't hurt people, but yeah, I mean I think you alluded to that or plainly stated it and when when you preached about that that there's gonna be answers that we don't have, you know, we because we we just don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

And it's okay, like uh you know, it goes back to what's what's the definition of faith, right?

SPEAKER_04 9:39

Like like it's it's that unseen aspect, but but the well that that was so that was not now that you said that, now you're I'm thinking of something else I I left out. I did have a whole uh section on uh conspiracy theories. And honestly, I wrote I probably had uh I don't know, 1500 words. Um I had a whole opening that I killed at the end because it was like going down a road of flat earth and uh and it was just I was having some fun with conspiracy theories, but I also then I didn't want people in the audience to I didn't want to say a conspiracy theory that they thought was real until and I was afraid that was you don't know nowadays like I mean who knows but but the idea behind the whole art behind that was uh because when we don't know something, we our our brains don't work that way. We have to figure it out. And so we create these elaborate things because we have to know. And so you see what that you see with any any kind of tragedy, you I think of Charlie Kirk getting shot, and immediately there's this whole other side of it of like, well, you know, and and even again going in the Epstein stuff, but I mean any kind of big thing, there's always this uh this undercurrent of like, well, the truth is really this. And and and sometimes it it's true. We saw that with COVID, where there's some stuff that was and wasn't, and but often it's just our minds trying to make sense of something we don't understand. And and and where that gets gets us a little bit in trouble, it can't get us in trouble is when it comes to again a God in our view of God. Because he's so vast, because he's so big, we have to put him in a box where it's like, well, you have to behave like this, because if you can behave like this, then I can manage you. So if I know you're a police officer, um that might be bad, good, whatever, but then I can manage you. But when you're out of that box and all of a sudden, oh lordy, what do I do? What do I do with this unknown? It it it messes with our heads. And so that's where I think we get into a lot of the the black and white thinking, which we're gonna talk about hopefully a little bit. Um, the grace and truth side of stuff. Um so I'm saying sorry, that when you said that ripped that whole thing out.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Um it was fun for me to write it, but yeah, I'm sure, like looking into that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:34

Well, yeah, I mean, I just it just my again, I mean, I do that myself. What I don't understand something, I've got to write I create a story, right? I create a narrative that um just because I need to feel like I'm in some kind of control.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

So Yeah, and I think I think because uh I know one of the questions coming up probably will will address that when when you know why do bad things happen, I think is one of our questions, right? Um and and we do tell this narrative, we do tell this story, and our worldview ultimately uh I guess uh determines how we we fall into what how we answer and expound upon those ideas and stuff like that. And so like when we say like trying to understand God's the bigger picture, and if we keep them in a small like box, like you said, it does change our worldview. When we don't, you know, when when like you said, because you said like a policeman or or or uh Santa Claus even and and you know that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_04 12:34

That's what but G Jesus comes in. It's that's the that is uh the unfortunate um part of us being so far removed from that culture is we know the whole story, and so it's easy to rip on the Pharisees and the soldiers, they've been both talking. But like like like what are you talking about? This is so insane. God is this, and this is who God is, and he has shown himself to be this. And then all of a sudden Jesus shows up and like, God is really that. And of course it's a mess, and of course it's hard, and it it comes like it costs him his life, right? I mean, like again, I that's where I think, but I also think as humans we still do that where we put God in these little boxes because we can manage him then, and it's a lot easier.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

And it's funny because you go back even to to the Hebrews when they when they left Egypt, right? And what's the first thing they do is they build a a golden calf idol, right? Yeah, and and and we look at it because again, like you said, we look at it from a future perspective and we don't really understand it, but to them, they were trying to give a visualization of what they thought God was. And and so, like, obviously God's gonna be angry about it. And and one of the reasons why he claim he he makes a commandment of not to make graven images of him is because it it belittles who he is, like it it it it like you said, puts him in this tiny little box, and it's he's so vast he can't even do that. And so to make an image of him even is is so so far away from you know speaking of the golden cap, I don't care It's probably giving me trouble.

SPEAKER_04 14:03

I don't care. Did you see uh Trump has a gold statue of himself done in uh it's like the 25-foot gold statue?

SPEAKER_01 14:11

He he didn't make it, did he?

SPEAKER_04 14:12

Oh of course he probably says he did. Somebody made it, but then uh this pastor was there dedicating it. And like, dude, he was getting raked over the goals on the island. It was so awesome. Like it cannot be anymore on the nose, but I don't know, what it's anti-Trump, whatever. I don't care about that. It was more funny to like here's a golden statue. Yeah, so anyway, so I won't be uh commissioning a golden statue.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

I'm glad because we we as elders won't approve it. So um all right. Well, um, is there some things you you let me push back on or at least question a little bit more about it?

SPEAKER_04 14:47

Yeah, yeah, we should tell people we have segments. We're trying segment is can I push back? Hey, Chris is going to push back on some. I have no idea what he's gonna say.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

We had to get a struggle because it's because I'm perfect, you can't push back.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

It rarely are there things where I'm like, oh, I totally disagree with that. And part of that's because when you come up with something that you're like, I don't know about this, you usually text me or call me and say, Hey, can I do this? And so so we normally avoid those things early on. Um, you never really I think sometimes it just comes down more to wording between us than it does intent. Because I don't ever feel like I've ever said, No, you can definitely not say that, or that is heretical to say. Right. Um, so so I always trust you in that. But um, but but I think for for some people who maybe don't study the Bible as much as we do or or spend time in there, might have some of these questions here. And so so one I have is um why you spent a lot of time in Genesis on the question of who is God. Um why is it that you felt that that was important? Um I mean, there's a lot of Old Testament that we can pull and look and see who God is, right? What what was your what was your rationale on Genesis?

SPEAKER_04 16:06

Um I don't know. Um I just I don't I I think for me that was the clearest and cleanest picture, and you get it like in one verse. I mean, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. That's that's everything in one very succinctly, like he is before for him to create that, it means he must be before that. And it says he created heavens and the earth, so that's everything. So he created everything. Um so that's kind of puts him puts him as far as that those characteristics of God that he was before and he birthed everything, um, that one verse for me made it very clear and clean. And so whenever I try to speak, I always try to be I always try to make it as clear as possible. I I don't do that really well often sometimes, but I try to like really drill down and make it clear. I guess you could go to old testament. I mean, where where would you go?

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Yeah, I don't know. There the the that's the problem is like we as we read through the old testament, and and that's why it's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 17:01

I think more of that would require context because if I were to pull up like uh a gu got on Mount Sinai or something and and killing a bunch of people, I mean you know, I could we could pull on some of these things and the fire and all that, but then it would require a whole lot more context of setting up how we got in that spot, why we got in that spot. You know what I mean? Like versus this is like a clean slate. There's nothing. Here he is. And so for me, that was there was a moment I think where I said, hey, that's that's imagine like there's no universe, no start, no, and like just imagine the darkness and like in our and and I think that's a opportunity where we can do our best to try to like oof go to nothing. And so for me it was that and then on I mean honestly, the biggest reason is because John begins in the beginning, and then I wanted to show Genesis in the beginning. And if you're super nerdy and you like uh text on the screen, um when I put the word in the beginning, it stayed in the same spot on the screen for when John came up and when Genesis came up. Nobody else noticed that. And that might have taken me way too long to do, but I did it. And I think it was very special for me, even though I didn't even look at it.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Okay, that's fair. That's fair. Um so uh here's my next one. If Jesus is the perfect revelation of God, right, does this make the old testament less important?

SPEAKER_04 18:16

Uh no, no, not at all, not at all. Because uh uh Jesus says he'd come to fulfill that, right? And so not at all. No, no, I don't I don't think so at all. No, no, not at all, not at all. I think you again, I think when you put the two together, you see this God that is before and and everything came from, and it is so big and so overwhelming, um and so far away, even though not, you know what I mean. So then for that grandness of God to then be harnessed and and and focused into one uh person and to be focused and to come as us, um, I think that's that shows the even more so the majesty and greatness of God. And so of course I don't think no, not at all, not at all. I think the old testament is extremely important. I know some I think Andy Stanley had a thing a while ago about Old Testament doesn't matter, and I just I disagree completely with that. Yeah, I think the Old Testament is everything beginning. I mean it's everything, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

I mean, uh again, my pushbacks aren't necessarily where I disagree with you. I wish you would.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

I wish we'd get into it. Like it's boring.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Well, it is it is boring because because I agree with you 100%. Like I think I I think it wasn't until like probably COVID-ish time where really I probably held a viewpoint of the Old Testament's not that important. Yeah, and I think uh sometime around COVID, and and and I'll be honest, it probably was Tim Mackey that really changed my my viewpoint on that. Um, but uh the importance of the Old Testament and and why it is much more valuable than I think what we've I think in your mind history of the church, I don't think we spent a lot of time in there. I think as kids we learned the stories, right? But I don't think I don't think as we grew up, I don't think preachers spend enough time in the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_04 19:59

Well I think I think some do. I think some do when they want to point to because I often hear we're gonna talk about grace and truth in a minute. You hear the truth people say they want the God of the Old Testament, they want the God that smites people and brings the hammer. And look at that God who who sends uh who rains down fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, and then that God who judges sin with an iron fist, and that's and there's there's this part um of fear-based uh preaching, fear-based leading. Again, if you think about the putting God in the box, that's super clean, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Right, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:28

If God is this, then I know, boy, I better stay in line because if not, right. And then Jesus comes and he uh picks up a woman who committed adultery and he does go and sin no more. Yeah, he he he he he does things that just go way outside of the box. He eats in with people that we shouldn't be anywhere. And again, because God is like this, and so that sets up a world where now I'm not gonna be around people that are sinful because God might get sinful. I might become like that. You know, that's what happens. So then Christ comes and he has a party with sinful people. Oh, God can't do that. Again, it breaks our paradigm. And so um, I don't know where we're out. I'm sorry, I got a little bit of a.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Oh, yeah, it's fine. I uh I think it's fair. Like you you're right that some used it as a hammer to drive their way, but not to teach the truths that that are in it.

SPEAKER_04 21:14

The fullness of God, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

For sure. Um, can we really know God?

SPEAKER_04 21:19

Well, what do you what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 21:21

I mean, can we really know God? Like, I mean, I know we can know who God or about God, but can we know God fully? I just want to see how you answer that. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_04 21:29

I don't know. That's a dumb question.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Um it's a dumb question.

SPEAKER_04 21:31

What do you mean? No, I don't know what you mean by that. Help me explain that question. So fully know God fully, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Yeah, so like like we said, it's it he's incomprehensible, right? Sure. So can we fully know him if if he's an incomprehensible being?

SPEAKER_04 21:44

Well, I mean, I think again, I don't I um I guess uh that's that's a very layered question because I would say if you know Jesus, you know God, right? Jesus says that. So can we know Jesus? Yes, we we can know Jesus, we can study Jesus, we can read it. Word, we can see it, we can see how he lived. Um we historically know that is who, you know, and we believe that that is and historically back to who he is, and then we can do all the that other stuff to learn about Jesus. So yes, I think we can know God in that aspect. Um so yeah, I I think we could now I don't know if you mean fully know God like what does he look like or anything, or I don't know but that's kind of a weird like I mean you know, and so I don't baptize.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

No, I think I think you answered the question the way I was thinking, like and and I kind of answered the part two where it it we may not fully comprehend who he is or what he is, but we can know him. And I think I think you pointed to it definitely in the sermon too, that you know, by knowing Christ, we can know who God is. Yeah. I hope so. I hope I I wouldn't necessarily disagree. Maybe some people do disagree. That there's some stuff that I've been reading historically where it's like people actually thought or still think some things, and I'm like, I don't understand how that's a thought process.

SPEAKER_04 23:00

And people think things.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Well, I mean specific ideas, like like so to to give uh my the the sermon, my first sermon I'm preaching on in this series is on the resurrection and spoiler alert. Yeah, well, we'll get there eventually. But like that's a some of the ideas of of like the atonement of of Christ's blood, like some of the ideas that fall behind it are are interesting, like you know, and and just the way people come up with ideas about things, even modern days, like you know, um you you called out Andy Stanley on uh the Old Testament, and and you know, my biggest beef is always with uh Joel Stein and Prosperity Gospel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like how I don't know how people get that out of the Bible and and out of the words of Christ and and whatnot. But anyways, so yeah, that's mine. So all right, those were my pushbacks. Sorry. I was trying I was really trying, like I was really like as wait till I get the pushback. Yeah, you always you always push back. You're good at that. I'm not so much on that.

SPEAKER_04 24:04

So um this next segment called Digging Deeper. Yep. And I don't quite know the meaning behind this segment, but I do know this is something that I wanted to spend a little bit extra time on that I didn't get to spend on in the sermon. It wasn't it made it in the sermon, but not to the fullness of what I wanted to make in the sermon. And this is uh perhaps my favorite verse in the Bible, John 1.14.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 24:23

Uh uh, if you want to read it or I can read it, but uh he came uh uh Yeah, yeah, I don't want to read it. I mean, yeah You want me to read it? Oh I can I can read it.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

I got it.

SPEAKER_04 24:34

I want to read it exactly how it's written in my in your that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

We I know we use different translations.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

Mine's the right one. Okay. And the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. Earlier I talked about uh the word dwell, uh, but this time I want to focus on that phrase, uh grace and truth. And I wish I would have not wish, this wasn't a sermon to sp to spend time on that, but that whole balance of Christ came perfectly balanced with grace and truth, and how uh as a people we uh side one way or the other. Like we're either we're either more grace-led or more truth-led, right? And we've been around people like that. For sure. And you know, if you're more um grace without truth, um everything gets affirmed, everything's lovey-dovey, sin becomes optional, um, truth without grace, people become projects, church becomes exhausting, nobody feels safe. But neither one of those is love. And that's where Christ comes and he is equal balance of both, which I think is so perfect. And we see this in two stories specifically. I wanted to talk about first John chapter four. This is where um Jesus is, they're going for a long walk, he's thirsty, he sits up, sits down at a well um because he's thirsty. A woman comes to get water at noon, which uh how I should have found the story. So she comes at noon, which she shouldn't be out at noon because she comes get water in the morning, so that means she's shun from her people. Um, she's embarrassed of her lifestyle, the whole thing. And so then he talks to her, right? Now, man and woman don't ever talk back then, culture-wise, so it's already shocking that he's doing that, which speaks to his elevating the woman, but we're not gonna go there yet. Um they do have this whole back and forth, and then he he builds a relationship with her before he confronts her on her on her lifestyle, right? But he does bring the truth, but he leads with grace, right? Right. Beautiful, beautiful story. And then obviously uh in John chapter 8. Um, so now there's a crowd, um, uh he's teaching. Pharisees bring before him a woman caught in adultery, which is always an interesting to me. How did they catch her? Were they watching? Were they waiting? Was it a trap? Were they recording it? What's going on? I mean, how'd they get this woman? Right. So they throw this woman before before him, whether she was clothed or half clothed, whatever, and embarrasses all get out, right? This woman can't even look up at Jesus, right? And they uh they they confront him with truth, the truth, the truth, the Torah that he believes, the Torah that he did says she should die. That's that that's the Bible says the Bible says she should die, right? That's the truth.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Right.

SPEAKER_04 26:53

So now is Christ going to go against the truth? What's he gonna do? Because this is that's the truth. The Bible says kill her, right? Um obviously he goes, they go back and forth, he writes in the sand, um, and then he says, whoever's the first um to sin, whoever's first, uh, whoever's in, you know, throw throw the first stone. We know the story. And what I like about the way John writes it is he says um the stones dropped, but it started with the oldest. And I thought it was so beautiful because wise believers are some of my favorite people because they have some of the best, they get closer to grace and truth than anybody else because they have lived life and they know life isn't black and they know it's not black and white, they know life is gray. And so they drop their stones and then the young people drop their stones and they they leave. And now he hears Christ now alone with this woman, and he picks her up. And I think that's so beautiful. Oh, he gets on her level, he meets her where she's at, and then he elevates her, and then he says, Um, hey, where's everybody at? Does anybody condemn you? And he goes, I don't either. And then he says, Goes in no more. He doesn't avoid the truth at all, at all, at all. But he also doesn't lead with the truth. Right. And so I think for my friends that are truth leader, lead leaners, they think just uh standing out there with a picket sign saying God hates fags or whatever and going hard on the here's the truth, the truth is the truth, it's your job to deal with it. That's not love, and that's not helpful, and that's not what Christ would do. Correct. No, that doesn't mean we don't say the truth. And I think that to my friends that are the lovers who just say, uh it's all good, we'll figure it out. We'll we'll get to it. We'll get to it. We'll always get to it, right? And so I think uh there's a saying, I think we we've said for a while that um tr uh truth you can speak truth, but you have to build a bridge of love to hold it. Like so you have the you have to speak truth. You have to but you have to again have that relationship, build that love bill to do that. And so um what side do you lean on? Are you more of a truth person or a love person?

SPEAKER_01 28:48

That's a good question. Um, I think it depends. I I like to try to fall like and I again like John writes, I as I've grown older, I I feel I've gone more away from leading with truth and more into the grace aspect of truth.

SPEAKER_04 29:04

So you're a truth leader, leaner then.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Um That's okay. No, no, I I I feel like in my life today I'm more on the grace side than I am on the truth side. But like before you with Jeff, you know, he all he always and and taught me well that um you know we have two feet, right? We have the foot foot of truth and the foot of grace, and we should always be leading with the foot of grace. And so so I think uh it's been something that I've tried to to put in. And you know, I think I lean more on the grace side too, because I think sometimes the truth side is harder.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

For me, I know for some people it's not. Like in there are people that I know in my life that that truth is the easier thing for them to lead with. And I think for me, truth is the harder thing to lean with, but at the same time, n being an elder and being a leader in the church, it's important that the truth aspect exists. You're an elder? Yeah. You're scientists too? Um, yeah. That was from last season that they knew But but but it but it's har it's hard because I think people who who lead with grace uh want to avoid confrontation as much as they can. I I think it because it's it's just easier for them to do that. And so so it's easy to lead with with with grace.

SPEAKER_04 30:25

And I think people who But it's not see, I would disagree. It's not easier to leave with grace, it's harder to lead with grace because because it's it's easy to just tell somebody you're a sinner, you're going to hell and walk away. It's it's it's easy to stand out in front of a uh uh it's it's easy to stand out in front of an abortion clinic and protest and say, Oh, you guys are going, you know. That's the hard part is to walk with that woman and to sit with that woman to know their story and to love them to the place where you're going to now put yourself out to be able to then speak the truth. It's super easy to shout the truth into the air. Anyway, and they can feel like you can you can feel really good about yourself. I I I ride my bike home and there's always these protests on the road or whatever. And and that's super yes, you're right, that's awesome, great. I'm not trying to condemn that, but I'm saying holding a sign and not doing your it's not doing the work. Correct. That's good for you. Doing the work is sitting across from the person and loving them enough to know their story and to walk with them into being. That's that's the hard part. And that takes too much work. And so I think where I I push back on the truth people is that is like they feel like they're doing something by shouting these truths. Um, and like, oh I've done my job. Well, you haven't. It's just it's lazy. It's lazy.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

And I agree with you because because I I think that's part of the revelation, you know, and and and again, studying the Bible more and more. Um, anytime I hear like I love to listen to the Beatles, and like um the one of my favorite songs is All You Need Is Love. And like obviously it it's a different, but it but it's a concept, right? Like because really that's that's the way the New Testament is set up.

SPEAKER_04 32:02

It is now love though isn't uh it's not the same. It is not acceptance and it's not approval. It's not that's I think we we're the line in that. Some people put love like, well, if they love, then they're you're accepting everything, you're approving everything.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

That's that's that's not true because if you really love somebody like when we love our children or we love our spouse, you know, there there's truth that's in that's blended into that. Like and and and I always think about it from a parent's perspective. Like my my love for my children also involves me teaching them and and making sure that they do the right thing when they should be doing it. And and so if I love anybody else, then it really should be in that same vein. Like, are are you are you doing the right thing? Are you are are you know and and it's hard too, because I think the other thing when it comes to truth people is you know, we we we want to I think truth people want to hold everybody accountable to Christian values, and you can't hold a non-Christian to to Christian values. No, and and but that that's where they want to be. And and I don't know how if you if that's all you ever look at, if all you ever focus in is on the truth. I don't know how you can ever get one somebody to to come to understand who Christ is and and come to accept Christ. Because I obviously in the end, we don't get to make that choice for that person, and and we and we're not necessarily the one God's ultimately the one that's going to to lead that person to him, but he has us here for reasons to fulfill that mission. And if all we're doing is driving that wedge in between, because it's oh you're like you said, you're a sinner because of X or you're a sinner because of Y. Like that's that's the part where I just don't get the truth people.

SPEAKER_04 33:45

Yeah, and I'll be broke, bro, a couple things. Be a little um careful with like the whole with truth people, love people, grace people, whatever. Like I the goal is we're gonna become more like Christ, and this is where Christ is perfectly balanced of both. So I'm a love person, a grace person first. And so I know that. And I've had a friend of mine who who helps helps me write sometimes, and he has reminded me of that. And so as part of my writing process is I have the word truth when I start to write, and I have to intentionally make sure I'm not swayed one way. I have to work because I want to become more like Christ. I want to become, you know, full of both, right? Working towards that. And so I hope people that are listening that are truther folks or love, grace people, that they're able to see that we're we're trying to become more like Christ and work more towards that and so and go towards that. I also think that on both sides of it, it's very easy to uh look at other people and it to judge them as that or this, because it takes the attention of us, of us and our sin and our lives. And so it's it's easy to say, well, look at that person because of that, and whereas, you know, but by the grace of God, my God, you know, I'm What's the whole plank inside us, right? And so yeah, and so recognizing again, again, the more you get to know Jesus, the more you get to know God, the re the more you realize how loved you are and how gracious he's been towards you. And my God, how can I not help others see that and and work, you know? I just yeah, it overwhelmed me. So um yeah, so that was that's that's what the the digging deeper part, we have dug deeper.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

We have definitely for sure.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

Now the next segment, we call this quick fire questions. Quick fire. Like sound effect.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Oh, you want sound effects?

SPEAKER_04 35:31

Um and these are like real quick questions we ask each other. Or you're asking me, I'm asking.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

We can we can go back and forth. I don't know, we haven't done this before, so let we're gonna we're gonna see how this works out for um all right, let's go with this one. What picture of God did you have growing up?

SPEAKER_04 35:46

I think they're a quick question. Um performative. So um he was a very um I I had earned his love, I had to perform, I had to behave, and then he would be happy with me. And if I didn't do that, um he would be very disappointed with me. To the fact that I would probably go to hell. And so everything was a um put on the best performance, whether that's um being a good son, a good uh if I I was a volunteer in the church as a teenager, I'd better do that well. Um everything had to be perfect, and if it wasn't Yeah, yeah, and that a lot of that stems from personal stuff growing up, mom and dad, and all that stuff, but but that's where and and again I don't think the church taught me that uh obviously not intentionally, not not not at all. But that's what the message I got was better behave. If not, God's gonna get him.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Okay, that's fair.

SPEAKER_04 36:47

Yeah. What's your favorite title for God?

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Oh, um that was my quick question.

SPEAKER_04 36:52

I even said it quick.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

His uh uh I think his the name they use for him, Yahweh, I think. Um I I I the idea of just Lord and like, but it's more than Lord, it's bigger. So cool. Um okay, how about this one? This should be quick. What kid question made you laugh the hardest when you read them the first time?

SPEAKER_04 37:16

I have to go back and look at them all. Um there were a there were a lot. There were a lot that were very funny. They're all very sweet. And so I think that was what I loved about them was that they were all asked with um with a good heart. And so they were they were funny in that. But they weren't they weren't trying to be funny. So I don't know. Oh man, I guess you know I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

It's one of those kids say the darndest things, right? Like they don't intentionally say it and I don't have the list on me.

SPEAKER_04 37:43

Um that's a great question. I'll have to go back and look.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Okay, that's fair. That's fair.

unknown 37:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Um I don't know if one stuck out to you that that you would remember.

SPEAKER_04 37:50

Oh man. I mean, there's a really neat one that was um I like the one where it's like, if God lives in me, why can't I hear him? Which I think is so beautiful. Oh, so wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

I did like that question a lot.

SPEAKER_04 38:00

And there's one cool one about the prodigals. Like, is it okay to be the prodigal son? And I think that's such a beautiful question. And that a two-year-old would ask that is wild, but no, I'm just kidding. A two-year-old didn't ask that. That would be funny, though. And then some of the fun ones, you know, alien did we're alien. I I like those are fun questions. Those are fun questions for sure.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

I like the did j did God does God have a dog? Did God have a dog? That's a good one. That was a good one. I forgot that one is a good idea.

SPEAKER_04 38:25

That was a great question, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Of course he does. What do you got?

SPEAKER_04 38:28

The name is Fido.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Fido? Fido the dog.

SPEAKER_04 38:30

Yeah. Um, okay. Uh what is one attribute that we ignore about God?

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Oh, I had that question too. Or something similar to that. I didn't. Um gosh. Um okay, I I'm gonna this is gonna sound weird, but I I'm gonna say omnipresence. Um, and I don't I don't know that it's ignored, but I don't think it's understood well. Because like you hear a lot of people pray about God being with us, like but God's always with us. Like you don't need to pray and ask for that because being omnipresent, he's everywhere, and so he's always with us, and or or got God be with them and stuff like that. And and it's asking like for God's presence, and people I think people just misunderstand it, and that's why. But so that's why I would say cool, cool. That one.

SPEAKER_04 39:12

That's all my quick questions.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Those were all that you had? Okay. We got one. Um I yeah, let me go one more. You want me to keep on? No, we're not gonna go all day. Um, oh, this is a fun one. Let's see. Well, it's not a quick question. If you could sit down with John for five minutes, what's the first question you would ask?

SPEAKER_03 39:29

How slow was Peter?

SPEAKER_00 39:31

That was what I thought. I was actually thinking that just now.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Sorry.

unknown 39:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

Was he really that slow? Are you just that big of a jerk? You're so full of yourself, you gotta write that down.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

That's one of the things that that is like why is John always right? I'm the one that Jesus, the one that Jesus loved.

SPEAKER_04 39:48

How do you circle pride? Uh whenever you write that like, oh that's in jerk.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

I am serious. That was where I thought your mind would go with that one. Oh, thank you. Because I know mine went that way. All right, I apologize for sorry. Um all right. Um what uh what's your favorite miracle that Jesus performed?

SPEAKER_04 40:20

Oh, I mean, I wait real, real fun. Seriously, I meant my life. I mean, the fact that he would he would uh call me use me. Um that's insane. It's stupid. It's stupid. My life is a a mess, a mess, a mess, a mess, a mess. And the fact that I'm sitting here in this chair talking to you in this role that I have, it is uh completely absurd. I should be dead, I should be in jail, I should be a mess. And and and without his grace and love, I don't it's it's unbelievable. And so um yeah, that that's for me. And this stuff in the Bible is amazing, watching him heal eyes and open eyes and heal, I mean, all that stuff's crazy and and and read uh what out there and beautiful, but I mean what what he's done in my own life is um yeah, remarkable. Remarkable.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

All right. Um well, I think we can leave it there. I've got uh we'll we'll have more qu quick fire questions next time.

SPEAKER_04 41:12

Okay, so we're gonna finish this segment. Okay, we're gonna finish every week with a question, since we're doing a series on questions, with a question we're gonna ask uh the people who are listening and are watching, right? And so um it's just a question for the week that they can focus on and think about. Um and so this the question I came up with this week was if someone only watched your life, uh, what would they assume God is like? And so if someone only watched your life, what would they assume God is like? And I think that would be kind of a fun question to sit with and to process. We did have a couple resources though we want to share with you. Um throughout this series, we are uh sign up for the church's emails because you're gonna get a couple emails every week that'll kind of talk about what we're talking about. We also have a daily devotional we put together that comes out in our app every day of the week, Monday through Friday. And so if you haven't downloaded the app yet, download the app, uh be a part of that, and then you can get access to that. And then obviously uh the sermon next week kind of continues this.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Next week we're gonna talk about this week one coming up.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

Uh yeah, what is uh heaven like?

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Oh what is heaven like?

SPEAKER_04 42:10

And I can't wait to talk about that. I'm I'm it's gonna be a fun sermon. I'm really excited about that. So that's what we got. Uh not for Sunday morning.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Not for Sunday morning. Well, thank you again for uh tuning in if you're watching, and I hope you enjoyed this one. Um and uh we'll be back in with you next week. Have a good one.

SPEAKER_04 42:29

Keep asking good questions. Yep. See you.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

All right, see y'all.